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 Post subject: Improvement?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:04 am 
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The Blues were .500 under Andy. Same with Payne.
The Blues played 40 minutes per game under Andy. Same.
The Blues goaltending was hot or cold under Andy. Same.
One of the lowest scoring teams under Andy. Same.
etc etc etc

Has there been one, just one, player who has shown real improvement under Payne?
How about one aspect of play? PP? PK? 5 on 5?

Plus I'm tired of seeing him looking like he has horrible indigestion standing behind the bench. He CANT be coach next year.

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 Post subject: Re: Improvement?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:05 am 
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Agreed. He has shown no inkling that he's NHL-caliber. The firing hopefully did one good thing: gave the Blues a few-month head start to find next year's leader.

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 Post subject: Re: Improvement?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:12 am 
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Payne hasn't had near enough time for anyone to properly evaluate his performance as head coach.

He'll be evaluated after the season is over, and not before.

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 Post subject: Re: Improvement?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:13 am 
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Leedog wrote:
The Blues were .500 under Andy. Same with Payne.
The Blues played 40 minutes per game under Andy. Same.
The Blues goaltending was hot or cold under Andy. Same.
One of the lowest scoring teams under Andy. Same.
etc etc etc

Has there been one, just one, player who has shown real improvement under Payne?
How about one aspect of play? PP? PK? 5 on 5?

Plus I'm tired of seeing him looking like he has horrible indigestion standing behind the bench. He CANT be coach next year.


plus he needs to shave his head!!

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 Post subject: Re: Improvement?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:16 am 
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A rookie coach hitting some rough patches early on? Color me surprised! Or not. Seriously, not enough time. I'm tired of all of these snap judgments that keep coming up any time the Blues play a bad game or two.

And you want to know who has shown improvement under Payne? Not many will like this or agree, but Brewer and Jackman have played much better since the coaching change, in my opinion. They still make some of the same mistakes, but check the numbers. Brewer now has 6 goals. I believe he was a plus player last night on a team that gave up 5 goals. Give it some friggin' time, for crying out loud.

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 Post subject: Re: Improvement?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:19 am 
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I have seen some things that I like, but then again the positives aren't as consistently there as you would like.

I think they have stretches where they make sharp, short passes and get through the neutral zone with speed - which is when they score goals and win games -but they still don't do it with enough consistency.

There has been more creativity and puck movement on the powerplay - and they use more than one set up - but they still haven't figured out how to finish.

I am really starting to think it's a couple of missing pieces more than anything a coach can fix.

Edit: the new coach has done nothing to make boyes, berglund, macdonald, and walt look like they belong on NHL ice as anything more than 4th line guys who eat some minutes cycling the puck in offensive zone. These guys have drifted and coasted all year. They just look like they have no idea what to do with the puck or away from it.

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 Post subject: Re: Improvement?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:28 am 
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Great. So the Blues don't have enough talent to prove the coach's talent. So you go get more talent.

But are you REALLY willing to pull the interim tag from an AHL guy when there's about to be some NHL-quality coaching talent available?

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 Post subject: Re: Improvement?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:44 am 
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dmiles2186 wrote:
A rookie coach hitting some rough patches early on? Color me surprised! Or not. Seriously, not enough time. I'm tired of all of these snap judgments that keep coming up any time the Blues play a bad game or two.

And you want to know who has shown improvement under Payne? Not many will like this or agree, but Brewer and Jackman have played much better since the coaching change, in my opinion. They still make some of the same mistakes, but check the numbers. Brewer now has 6 goals. I believe he was a plus player last night on a team that gave up 5 goals. Give it some friggin' time, for crying out loud.


Yet, you don't consider firing a coach, who was a genius as late as mid October after sweeping the Red Wings in Europe and getting a bunch of injury depleted, overachieving kids into the playoffs last year, 2 1/2 months later a snap judgment? The fact that wunderkind hasn't done any better makes me think it wasn't Murray afterall.

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 Post subject: Re: Improvement?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:55 am 
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cprice12 wrote:
Payne hasn't had near enough time for anyone to properly evaluate his performance as head coach.

He'll be evaluated after the season is over, and not before.

:plusplus:

Lets discuess who our coach will be after the season is over. This team was already distracted half the year because thats all everyone would talk about.

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 Post subject: Re: Improvement?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:33 am 
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Until he throws some sh1t on the ice and berates the officials, i'm skeptical.

Bring back Brian Sutter.

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 Post subject: Re: Improvement?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:09 am 
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dmiles2186 wrote:
A rookie coach hitting some rough patches early on? Color me surprised! Or not. Seriously, not enough time. I'm tired of all of these snap judgments that keep coming up any time the Blues play a bad game or two.

And you want to know who has shown improvement under Payne? Not many will like this or agree, but Brewer and Jackman have played much better since the coaching change, in my opinion. They still make some of the same mistakes, but check the numbers. Brewer now has 6 goals. I believe he was a plus player last night on a team that gave up 5 goals. Give it some friggin' time, for crying out loud.



I'm with you on Brewer......not a fan......but he has played better.


Can't roll with you on Jackman. He has honestly been the worst player on the ice the last two months. It looks like he doesn't even want to play anymore. His mind is NEVER in the game.

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 Post subject: Re: Improvement?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:13 am 
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Leedog wrote:
dmiles2186 wrote:
A rookie coach hitting some rough patches early on? Color me surprised! Or not. Seriously, not enough time. I'm tired of all of these snap judgments that keep coming up any time the Blues play a bad game or two.

And you want to know who has shown improvement under Payne? Not many will like this or agree, but Brewer and Jackman have played much better since the coaching change, in my opinion. They still make some of the same mistakes, but check the numbers. Brewer now has 6 goals. I believe he was a plus player last night on a team that gave up 5 goals. Give it some friggin' time, for crying out loud.


Yet, you don't consider firing a coach, who was a genius as late as mid October after sweeping the Red Wings in Europe and getting a bunch of injury depleted, overachieving kids into the playoffs last year, 2 1/2 months later a snap judgment? The fact that wunderkind hasn't done any better makes me think it wasn't Murray afterall.


The problem with Murray was the expectations. Nevermind that he was almost fired at this point a year ago, because once the team went on that run, the Blues marketing department took it upon themselves to step up the expectations with the, "You're the Last Piece!" campaign. The two games over Detroit stepped things up too, but everyone seems to make snap judgments these days and forget that it was simply that....just two games.

Murray had lost the room, from what it sounds like. But in all honesty, you can't trade an entire team. So the easiest thing to do was fire the coach, would be my assumption. And if you recall, Pleau had that very publicized tirade in the locker room where he told the players that no one wanted them. Whether that was true or not, or whether that was a motivational tool, I don't know. But clearly, there are players who are not responding.

Yet, we can't forget that some of these guys are just in their first few years. It kills me when people compare our young guys to others from the same draft class. I understand that's what you do, but in the case of someone like EJ or Petro, from the very BEGINNING, they were guys who were labeled as future Norris winner/elite players, but were very raw. Same for Perron and Berglund. Had all the skills but would take time to develop. But when people see the Doughty's and the Kane's and the Bogosian's, etc. they get impatient and feel our players should develop at that rate too. Granted, it would be nice to see some progress and consistency, but patience is hard to preach when the team made such an inspiring run. I was worried about a set back like this, but not of this epic scale.

It makes it even harder when teams like the Blackhawks and Coyotes shot from the cellar to the top of the Western Conference. You'll never please everyone, but this season has been epic when it comes to frustrations, even for Blues fans.

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 Post subject: Re: Improvement?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:45 pm 
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dmiles2186 wrote:
Leedog wrote:
dmiles2186 wrote:
A rookie coach hitting some rough patches early on? Color me surprised! Or not. Seriously, not enough time. I'm tired of all of these snap judgments that keep coming up any time the Blues play a bad game or two.

And you want to know who has shown improvement under Payne? Not many will like this or agree, but Brewer and Jackman have played much better since the coaching change, in my opinion. They still make some of the same mistakes, but check the numbers. Brewer now has 6 goals. I believe he was a plus player last night on a team that gave up 5 goals. Give it some friggin' time, for crying out loud.


Yet, you don't consider firing a coach, who was a genius as late as mid October after sweeping the Red Wings in Europe and getting a bunch of injury depleted, overachieving kids into the playoffs last year, 2 1/2 months later a snap judgment? The fact that wunderkind hasn't done any better makes me think it wasn't Murray afterall.


The problem with Murray was the expectations. Nevermind that he was almost fired at this point a year ago, because once the team went on that run, the Blues marketing department took it upon themselves to step up the expectations with the, "You're the Last Piece!" campaign. The two games over Detroit stepped things up too, but everyone seems to make snap judgments these days and forget that it was simply that....just two games.

Murray had lost the room, from what it sounds like. But in all honesty, you can't trade an entire team. So the easiest thing to do was fire the coach, would be my assumption. And if you recall, Pleau had that very publicized tirade in the locker room where he told the players that no one wanted them. Whether that was true or not, or whether that was a motivational tool, I don't know. But clearly, there are players who are not responding.

Yet, we can't forget that some of these guys are just in their first few years. It kills me when people compare our young guys to others from the same draft class. I understand that's what you do, but in the case of someone like EJ or Petro, from the very BEGINNING, they were guys who were labeled as future Norris winner/elite players, but were very raw. Same for Perron and Berglund. Had all the skills but would take time to develop. But when people see the Doughty's and the Kane's and the Bogosian's, etc. they get impatient and feel our players should develop at that rate too. Granted, it would be nice to see some progress and consistency, but patience is hard to preach when the team made such an inspiring run. I was worried about a set back like this, but not of this epic scale.

It makes it even harder when teams like the Blackhawks and Coyotes shot from the cellar to the top of the Western Conference. You'll never please everyone, but this season has been epic when it comes to frustrations, even for Blues fans.


++

I am frustrated, but who wouldn't be when a team loses? Its even worse after we got spoiled with a spectacular, miraculous run to the playoffs last year that really SEEMED to usher in the new era. But the reality of rebuilding was that it was more likely a flash in the pan or a glimmer of the future and not a reliable assessment of the team. There is definitely something different (missing?) this season from last season (other than the PRESENCE of a $6 million forward and a First Overall Pick). Motivation, leadership, chemistry... whatever it is, they've lost that loving feeling. I favor trading away some veterans (Kariya, Colaiacovo) not because I am panicking over where the team is now, but because they just don't seem to be part of the long-term solution. I would be interested in fazing out Brewer and Jackman, one at a time, so long as they are being replaced by better players or players with potential for a bright future. Not just to get them out of there for the sake of getting them out of there, but to IMPROVE the team.

I firmly believe there is waaaaay too much knee-jerk reaction going on among the fans. The only place there doesn't seem to be knee-jerking is the front office, which garners criticism for every move it makes no matter what they decide to do. I don't think the Murray firing was knee-jerk, I think they waited as long as they could before trying a new thing. Is Payne a better coach than Murray? Maybe, maybe not, but he's definitely a different kind of coach than Murray. I like the concept of promoting from within. So for now I will stick with Payne until it becomes CLEAR he's not helping the organIzation along.

If the Blues don't make the playoffs, I will be as disappointed as anyone because the NHL playoffs are the shiznit. But if they don't make the playoffs, I can understand that this team just didn't have "it" this season but has drafted and accumulated talent that is emerging (read: has not entirely emerged yet) and has the potential to pay off huge dividends. Hind sight is 20/20, so we can all sit here and criticize some of the moves that have been made and look vindicated or justified, or we can acknowledge that this team (1) has a plan (2) that is prudent and (3) has the potential to pay off big. Whether or not it does is an entirely different story, one that nobody can possibly know.

I think I'm done, but probably not.

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 Post subject: Re: Improvement?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:05 pm 
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I believe the issue is that Davis Payne didn't have the orientation camps, pre-season, and all of the practices in between to turn this team into "his" team. I feel bad for Payne. He's kind of just along for the ride. He makes simple adjustments while he can (in between games and during morning skates), but this team still wreaks of AM. Yes, other teams introduce new coaches and get immediate results, but AM had this team's structure all fukked up. I definitely think he deserves a legitimate chance at coaching this team. Especially as we move on and continue to work more young guys into the lineup. The FO knows what this team is lacking, and hopefully, they do everything they can to rectify the situation during the offseason. I'm leaning more towards player aquisitions being more important than a new coach at this current point in time.

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 Post subject: Re: Improvement?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:38 pm 
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Don't rush to judge Payner just yet.....He was tossed into this situation. I like the fact that he isn't afraid to juggle the lines and mix guys around. The guy can coach. He is low key off the ice and his bench demeanor is the same. He demands a lot but isn't going to hold your hand. The guys in Peoria really like him and I suspect the younger Blues players will enjoy his style too. Playoffs or not, Payne deserves another shot next year.

On another note...why have we been so unfortunate promoting goalies within? Bishop has not played well as of late HT is not the future answer. Sanford left for more money. Divis was home sick. We gave up on Schwarz. Cash was a head case in Peoria truth be told. CBT was a AHLer' at best. Holt was just passing through. The Blues waived Lalime and Legace who did OK for us in Peoria. Look around the division or league. Hawks, Redwings, Preds, Thrashers and Wild to name a few all have goalies who have been in Peoria vs the Rivs. All of them have come through the system. It's just crazy to see the goalie prospects that the Rivs have faced over the last couple of seasons.


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 Post subject: Re: Improvement?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:46 pm 
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blueline wrote:
Don't rush to judge Payner just yet.....He was tossed into this situation. I like the fact that he isn't afraid to juggle the lines and mix guys around. The guy can coach. He is low key off the ice and his bench demeanor is the same. He demands a lot but isn't going to hold your hand. The guys in Peoria really like him and I suspect the younger Blues players will enjoy his style too. Playoffs or not, Payne deserves another shot next year.

On another note...why have we been so unfortunate promoting goalies within? Bishop has not played well as of late HT is not the future answer. Sanford left for more money. Divis was home sick. We gave up on Schwarz. Cash was a head case in Peoria truth be told. CBT was a AHLer' at best. Holt was just passing through. The Blues waived Lalime and Legace who did OK for us in Peoria. Look around the division or league. Hawks, Redwings, Preds, Thrashers and Wild to name a few all have goalies who have been in Peoria vs the Rivs. All of them have come through the system. It's just crazy to see the goalie prospects that the Rivs have faced over the last couple of seasons.


I thought Schwarz was the one who gave up? Wasn't he playing the homesick card too?


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 Post subject: Re: Improvement?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:51 pm 
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Now that brings back some memories:

"Pure Hard" Divis... :lol:

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Last edited by gaijin on Tue Feb 09, 2010 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Improvement?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:44 pm 
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See, my whole point is how could AM have the structure so effed up and still get them into the playoffs a year or two ahead of schedule. Especially with all the injuries last year. And, as far as "losing the room", if that was the problem, I guess Payne hasn't "found it".

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 Post subject: Re: Improvement?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:35 pm 
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Didnt goaltending get them into the playoffs lastyear?
They havent had a good offense in years. Pathetic. Get a fracking star out there.


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 Post subject: Re: Improvement?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:56 pm 
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Leedog wrote:
See, my whole point is how could AM have the structure so effed up and still get them into the playoffs a year or two ahead of schedule. Especially with all the injuries last year. And, as far as "losing the room", if that was the problem, I guess Payne hasn't "found it".


Payne's been there a friggin' month. It's going to take a bit longer to clean up the mess that Murray left. Scotty Bowman couldn't turn this team around in a month.

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