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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:54 am 
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Thought I'd post some of the rumors involving the Cards I've seen/heard:

1) Matt Holliday: MLBTraderumors.com has mentioned it and it makes some sense to get another bat, but I'd imagine it would have to take some of out outfield prospects/talents to get him (Duncan, Rasmus, Schumaker, Ludwick). I guess Mozeliak could just think the best trades he could make regarding pitching is getting Carp, Mulder, Clement and Wainwright back.

2)Freddy Garcia- FA starter who hasn't played this year. Again though, starting pitching and outfield haven't been our main concerns IMO. Lefties/relievers is what I think we need.

3) Matt Herges- Col. Reliever. Makes sense for a rental.

4) Also heard Baltimore 2B Brian Roberts name thrown into the mix, but I'm personally satisfied with Miles/Kennedy for now.

We have a great amount of outfield talent and it makes sense to trade from that surplus- but to get another outfielder, albeit a cornerstone type of player? Very interseting scenario. Do you give up Rasmus or Ludwick in a package for Holliday or hope they want Duncan? Would the Rockies even want outfielders in return to replace Holliday?

Also:
Anything that rids the lineup of Isturis is a good deal in my mind.

Wrap your mind around this:

1: Miles 2B S
2: Ankiel CF L
3: Pujols 1B R
4: Holliday LF R
5: Glaus 3B R
6: Ludwick RF R
7: Molina C R
8: Pitcher
9: Ryan SS R

Ouch. Put Kennedy in against most righties. Formidable lineup with Pujols sandwiched between Ankiel and Holliday.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 8:50 am 
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Now that the Brewers got Sabathia. I wonder if that will force the Cards to make a big move and deal away a Rasmus or Garcia. I hope we don't fold to the pressure and make a stupid trade.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 3:22 pm 
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stlmark wrote:
Now that the Brewers got Sabathia.


:twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

playoffs or bust. I can't describe how happy I am that management feels that way.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 3:33 pm 
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WaukeeBlues wrote:
stlmark wrote:
Now that the Brewers got Sabathia.


:twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

playoffs or bust. I can't describe how happy I am that management feels that way.


I need a puke smilie. :twisted:

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:53 pm 
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Am I the only one that wouldn't be opposed to moving Rasmus for Holliday as long as we can get Holliday locked up long term?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:46 pm 
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I really don't see this team making a big move. The way things were shaping up this offseason, management looked like it was aiming to contend in '09. You've got Edmonds', Encarnacion's, Izzy's and Mulder's contracts are off the books. From what I understand, the Cardinals have an option for Mulder next year worth $11 million, but they'll turn that down and maybe try to re-sign him at a lower price, obviously.

Rasmus, Perez, McClellan, Garcia (?), and Anderson are all likely to be in the lineup next year. Plus, with the extra money, they could be players in the free agent market.

What I'm saying is, I don't think they'll move any of these guys. If they're going to make a trade, in my opinion, it's going to be a lefty reliever. Holliday would be great, but I don't want a Mulder Trade Part Duex to happen again and have Rasmus haunt us for years to come. Plus, the reason the last half of '06 and all of '07 were such a struggle (minus October '06, of course) was because we had aging veterans and no youngsters to take their place. Do we want that again? Wasn't that a major complaint of Jocketty's reign here? Mortgaging the future on the here and now?

I'm happy sitting on this roster right now. Free up money in the offseason, go after a middle infielder and shore up the bullpen and make another run next year. But that's just me...

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:18 am 
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dmiles2186 wrote:
I really don't see this team making a big move. The way things were shaping up this offseason, management looked like it was aiming to contend in '09. You've got Edmonds', Encarnacion's, Izzy's and Mulder's contracts are off the books. From what I understand, the Cardinals have an option for Mulder next year worth $11 million, but they'll turn that down and maybe try to re-sign him at a lower price, obviously.

Rasmus, Perez, McClellan, Garcia (?), and Anderson are all likely to be in the lineup next year. Plus, with the extra money, they could be players in the free agent market.

What I'm saying is, I don't think they'll move any of these guys. If they're going to make a trade, in my opinion, it's going to be a lefty reliever. Holliday would be great, but I don't want a Mulder Trade Part Duex to happen again and have Rasmus haunt us for years to come. Plus, the reason the last half of '06 and all of '07 were such a struggle (minus October '06, of course) was because we had aging veterans and no youngsters to take their place. Do we want that again? Wasn't that a major complaint of Jocketty's reign here? Mortgaging the future on the here and now?

I'm happy sitting on this roster right now. Free up money in the offseason, go after a middle infielder and shore up the bullpen and make another run next year. But that's just me...


I agree.

I deal lesser prospects for another lefty reliever(Fuentes), but I'm not sure I'm willing to deal away Rasmus for Holliday. We could use another right power bat in the outfield, but there's just something better about a homegrown team as opposed to buying a team.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 2:54 pm 
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Holliday is just 28 and assuming we could afford to lock him up long term I agree with OS that he could be worth Rasmus. The risks are: Holliday gets injured and we should have kept Rasmus (i.e. the Mulder deal with Haren) or we keep Rasmus and a) hedoesn't turn out or b) HE gets injured. We know Holliday is a stud player and not just a fluke, he's top 5 in batting again this year. I would feel very confident about this team with Holliday/Ankiel/Ludwick/Schumaker in the OF. But this deal would only be good if it was getting Holliday for the long run. Under no circumstances should Rasmus be traded for a rental (Sabathia).

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 3:42 am 
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OS wrote:
Am I the only one that wouldn't be opposed to moving Rasmus for Holliday as long as we can get Holliday locked up long term?


Hey, it's not my money. Do it.
But it's going to take more than Rasmus.

I doubt they go after a pitcher, since they have Wainright and Carpenter scheduled to return in August. Hopefully that isn't too late.
IF, somehow they could add Holliday and then add Wainright and Carpenter too... that's adding three top quality guys...assuming both Wainright and Carpenter can come back and be effective right away.

If all of that happens in August and we're within a few games...look out.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 4:24 am 
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I agree, OS. Holliday is tearing it up, and is only 28. I'll take proven talent over potential 90% of the time.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:04 am 
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OS wrote:
Am I the only one that wouldn't be opposed to moving Rasmus for Holliday as long as we can get Holliday locked up long term?


Not at all, I am loosing patience with Rasmus.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:58 pm 
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OS wrote:
Am I the only one that wouldn't be opposed to moving Rasmus for Holliday as long as we can get Holliday locked up long term?


Absolutely, in a heart beat. I'd throw any other minor leaguers we have in there too. Holliday behind Pujols would be devastating. Everyone else in the lineup would be even better as well.

If Rasmus comes up and becomes a Cardinal killer for the Rockies, I won't care because I would bet Holliday is doing a lot more killing. And by the time Holliday is old and done, Rasmus will be the new Holliday (probably about to get traded out of Denver) ormay not even be in the National League anymore. You can't worry about what Rasmus may do to the Cards in the future when you know what Holliday could do for the Cards right now and, if re-signed, for YEARS to come. Nobody knows what these prospects may do in the pros. We all know what Holliday could do.

But, I think DeWitt is loving this season- they have a shit team out there that will probably fade just enough to miss the playoffs if they stand pat. But, even if they fade, the stadium is going to be packed every game and his pockets are going to get filled anyway because of the way the team has played so far. There's no incentive for DeWitt or Mozeliak to make a big trade.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:41 am 
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I just noticed this...
Have you guys seen Holliday's home numbers vs. his away numbers?
His away numbers aren't great...and his home numbers are outstanding.

He seems to be a byproduct of playing in Colorado's light air. And if that is the case, then he is definitely not worth what it would take to get him.

He only has 5 home runs, 14 RBI's, a .301 avg. and a .459 slugging % on the road in 38 games this season....compared to his 9 home runs, 38 RBI's, .368 avg. and .638 slugging % in 41 games at home.

Holliday basically has the same number of games played at home as he does on the road, but the numbers are drastically different.

I'd say no thanks to Holliday. He could be another Dante Bichette, who was only good in Colorado.
It could be one of those deals where you give up a lot to get a guy, and the guy never lives up to expectations and financially straps the organization for a few years and actually makes the organization worse.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:13 am 
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Those numbers would have concerned me back in the day that Bichette played, but Coors isn't as bad as it used to be now that they use the humidifier on the balls. They're still a hitters park (3rd in HR's, 4th in Runs), but back in the day they were way ahead in those categories. Here's some great stats for you.... over the last three seasons (05-07), his best numbers are at Busch Stadium.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:41 pm 
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This is copied from a post I made at RBN about this very topic. OS, that's in 29 at bats, which is a statisticaly insignificant number of at bats. The following three year numbers are over more that 800 at bat, home and road.


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I'd be a lot more thrilled if it was someone who had put up the numbers Holliday has but without Coors being their home park. His home-road splits for the last three years:

avg obp slg hr rbi
road - .281 .343 .466 30 126
home - .370 .430 .676 59 212

Just for comparison sake, here's Juan Encarnacion's best season:

avg - .287
obp - .349
slg - .447

Outside of Coors, Holliday is Juan Encarnacion at his best.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:58 pm 
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OS wrote:
Those numbers would have concerned me back in the day that Bichette played, but Coors isn't as bad as it used to be now that they use the humidifier on the balls. They're still a hitters park (3rd in HR's, 4th in Runs), but back in the day they were way ahead in those categories. Here's some great stats for you.... over the last three seasons (05-07), his best numbers are at Busch Stadium.


I hear that really....... oh...... never mind.... that's too easy........... :wink:


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:11 pm 
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F Keenan wrote:
OS wrote:
Am I the only one that wouldn't be opposed to moving Rasmus for Holliday as long as we can get Holliday locked up long term?


Not at all, I am loosing patience with Rasmus.


Losing patience with Rasmus? The dude is 21 friggin' years old. He's ascended through the ranks at a pretty normal rate, I'd say.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:28 am 
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choppa4 wrote:
I'd be a lot more thrilled if it was someone who had put up the numbers Holliday has but without Coors being their home park. His home-road splits for the last three years:

avg obp slg hr rbi
road - .281 .343 .466 30 126
home - .370 .430 .676 59 212

Just for comparison sake, here's Juan Encarnacion's best season:

avg - .287
obp - .349
slg - .447

Outside of Coors, Holliday is Juan Encarnacion at his best.


How is it that his numbers at Busch Stadium are meaningless but when you sum together a bunch of meaningless stats at individual stadiums suddenly those numbers become more meaningful?

It's entirely possible that Holliday, like many, many athletes in all sports, perform better at home. Maybe he wouldn't do as well at Busch on a daily basis as he does at Coors, but to suggest he would be Juan Encarnacion is plain ignorant.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:53 pm 
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OS wrote:
choppa4 wrote:
I'd be a lot more thrilled if it was someone who had put up the numbers Holliday has but without Coors being their home park. His home-road splits for the last three years:

avg obp slg hr rbi
road - .281 .343 .466 30 126
home - .370 .430 .676 59 212

Just for comparison sake, here's Juan Encarnacion's best season:

avg - .287
obp - .349
slg - .447

Outside of Coors, Holliday is Juan Encarnacion at his best.


How is it that his numbers at Busch Stadium are meaningless but when you sum together a bunch of meaningless stats at individual stadiums suddenly those numbers become more meaningful?

It's entirely possible that Holliday, like many, many athletes in all sports, perform better at home. Maybe he wouldn't do as well at Busch on a daily basis as he does at Coors, but to suggest he would be Juan Encarnacion is plain ignorant.


I wouldn't go so far as to say he is Juan Encarnacion...but his performance away from Coors Field is a huge red flag if you ask me.
And I'm not interested in acquiring an expensive piece to a puzzle, based on the strength of a couple dozen at bats at Busch Stadium. Way too small of a sample size if you ask me.
If we traded for him, his numbers at Busch would drop down much closer to his average road numbers in no time, especially since Busch Stadium III isn't a hitters park.
Yeah, he may just be the kind of guy who plays better at home...but to make the trade worth it, he'd have to be drastically better outside Coors than he is now, and I don't think I want to roll those dice.

I think it's a moot point anyway. They say Colorado is asking for a ton in return. And I doubt we give up a ton to get him.
I'd rather take my chances with Mather and/or Rasumus and see how they develop, than to give them up for a guy who may only be an average to slightly above average outfielder outside Coors Field.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 12:18 pm 
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Brewers just made another trade...they acquired 2B Ray Durham.

They're serious about this up in cheeseland.

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