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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:24 am 
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Philo wrote:
F Keenan wrote:
Ruutu15 wrote:

I said that I know what he did was wrong, but I support his stance on the unions and what he's done for them, especially lately. Republicans typically equal anti-union, so they will never have my support.



Well the unions did a fine job of driving up the cost of labor in this country forcing companies to ship jobs out of the country or eliminate them completely. Funny that years ago the UAW drove their wages up so high that they have collapsed their employers and screwed thousands of their "brothers" out of the job today. :lol: What a fukking joke.



if you would do any research you would know that the cost of wages and benefits are only 10 percent of the cost of a vehicle.so don't blame the unions for this debacle.



True, they are not the sole reason the auto industry is in the dumps, but don't tell me thay are not part of the problem. No one is being forced to work 7 days a week, 18 hours a day anymore. No one is being forced to work in unsafe conditions anymore. Unions served a purpose 70+ years ago, but they they are only about $$$. Of course, if you fail a drug test, are insubordinate, or just don't like where you are working, by all means go back to the hall and they will find you more work.

It just has to do with how you were raised. Some of us were raised to work hard and build a name for YOURSELF and you just might succeed. America is a great nation that will allow you opportunity, but YOU have to put forth the effort. There are no guarantees. Sometimes you win; sometimes you lose.

Others are raised that someone else (unions, government, mommy and daddy) will always be there to take care of you.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 8:22 am 
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cprice12 wrote:
If this can be discussed without personal attacks and people acting like crybaby bitches, I'll leave it unlocked.
It's up to you guys.

:wink:


20 bones says you voted for this doucheaholic. :P :wink:

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:14 pm 
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The thing I simply can't get my brain around...

How can this guy show up for work today? Why hasn't he already resigned? This dude must REALLY be clueless............


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:21 pm 
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I was lmao when I read some of the quotes. I am sure lots of govenors etc. say things like he did... and do them... but this guy was just unlucky the feds were listening.

My favorite was the one where he said to his aid that the obama campaign wouldn't play ball "... all they wanted to give me was appreciation. Frank them."

:lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:25 pm 
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F Keenan wrote:
Others are raised that someone else (unions, government, mommy and daddy) will always be there to take care of you.



Spoken like someone who truly doesn't know what the (Frank) they're talking about.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:45 pm 
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Ruutu15 wrote:


Spoken like someone who truly doesn't know what the (Frank) they're talking about.



:lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 2:46 pm 
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Ruutu15 wrote:
F Keenan wrote:
Others are raised that someone else (unions, government, mommy and daddy) will always be there to take care of you.



Spoken like someone who truly doesn't know what the (Frank) they're talking about.



Did your union allow you to say that? Are you on your 3 hour lunch break?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:19 pm 
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goon attack wrote:
Ruutu15 wrote:
F Keenan wrote:
Others are raised that someone else (unions, government, mommy and daddy) will always be there to take care of you.



Spoken like someone who truly doesn't know what the (Frank) they're talking about.



Did your union allow you to say that? Are you on your 3 hour lunch break?



The comments that you guys post make it painfully obvious that you have no idea what you're talking about, and are going off of tired stereotypes. The white collar boardroom has their gangsters and we have ours. Ours are just more vocal. Besides, what's wrong with agreeing on a contract? Both parties have to approve, so what's the problem?

A lot of people worked hard and banded together in times when it was unsafe to do so, so that we have the working rights that we have now. 40 hour work week, safety training, representation in the workplace, fair wages, etc. And yes, you CAN be fired from a union job, there just has to be a reason.

You have your opinions, I have mine. Having been an assistant shop steward at a previous job, I am well aware of the workings of the unions. They built this country and gave the small guy a voice.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:26 pm 
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Those 'fair wages' are one of the reasons why Detroit is going under, so I hope your union brothers enjoy them while they last.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:27 pm 
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one issue voting just blows ass if you ask me.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:28 pm 
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OS wrote:
Those 'fair wages' are one of the reasons why Detroit is going under, so I hope your union brothers enjoy them while they last.



you're the one who voted for obama, so what are you crying about? this shit is on you too, os.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:35 pm 
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goon attack wrote:
OS wrote:
Those 'fair wages' are one of the reasons why Detroit is going under, so I hope your union brothers enjoy them while they last.



you're the one who voted for obama, so what are you crying about? this shit is on you too, os.


Last I checked Obama hasn't been in office a single day yet.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:39 pm 
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I know that when people with no education doing unskilled manual labor earn $30/hr with really good benefits and I have a college degree while making less than half of that then they've gone beyond "a fair wage".

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:41 pm 
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OS wrote:
Those 'fair wages' are one of the reasons why Detroit is going under, so I hope your union brothers enjoy them while they last.



Oh yeah? That's why those fair wages only comprise 6-10% of the price of a vehicle, according to which source you prefer. The cost of a vehicle has grown substantially over the past 30 years, we can all agree on that. The wages have as well, but not to the extent of the cost of the car. Throw in more efficient machinery and that also cuts down on the number and cost of labor. With all of that considered, why didn't Detroit "go under" 10, 20, or 30 years ago? Your argument doesn't hold up to the facts, OS.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:43 pm 
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Mellanby_equals_grit wrote:
I know that when people with no education doing unskilled manual labor earn $30/hr with really good benefits and I have a college degree while making less than half of that then they've gone beyond "a fair wage".


First off, unless you're blowing someone, GM won't even hire you to work the assembly line unless you have a degree...ANY degree. Second, you're right...we'll agree on a pay cut when they lower their board room salaries and drop the price of the car. Concessions are being made on both sides during these times.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:46 pm 
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Ruutu15 wrote:
OS wrote:
Those 'fair wages' are one of the reasons why Detroit is going under, so I hope your union brothers enjoy them while they last.



Oh yeah? That's why those fair wages only comprise 6-10% of the price of a vehicle, according to which source you prefer. The cost of a vehicle has grown substantially over the past 30 years, we can all agree on that. The wages have as well, but not to the extent of the cost of the car. Throw in more efficient machinery and that also cuts down on the number and cost of labor. With all of that considered, why didn't Detroit "go under" 10, 20, or 30 years ago? Your argument doesn't hold up to the facts, OS.


Common sense doesn't tell you that paying unskilled people $70K per year might have an effect on the bottom line of the big 3? One thing those salaries certainly did was cost the country jobs.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:52 pm 
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OS wrote:
Ruutu15 wrote:
OS wrote:
Those 'fair wages' are one of the reasons why Detroit is going under, so I hope your union brothers enjoy them while they last.



Oh yeah? That's why those fair wages only comprise 6-10% of the price of a vehicle, according to which source you prefer. The cost of a vehicle has grown substantially over the past 30 years, we can all agree on that. The wages have as well, but not to the extent of the cost of the car. Throw in more efficient machinery and that also cuts down on the number and cost of labor. With all of that considered, why didn't Detroit "go under" 10, 20, or 30 years ago? Your argument doesn't hold up to the facts, OS.


Common sense doesn't tell you that paying unskilled people $70K per year might have an effect on the bottom line of the big 3? One thing those salaries certainly did was cost the country jobs.


How did it cost the country jobs? Unskilled? According to who? Every union that I've ever been affiliated with has mandated serious training for ANY job that you're going to do. I've not been affiliated with the UAW on a firsthand basis, but I know that they aren't different. And let's not forget, the big 3 also has a lot of jobs outside of Detroit. GM has it's Allison transmission in Indianapolis, for example. Would they do it for a lower wage? Maybe, but not when they're charging $30,000 for a car that should cost $15,000.

Honestly, I don't see the problem. This is private sector money. If the big 3 didn't want to pay that much in salary to it's employees, they shouldn't have agreed to the contract.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:56 pm 
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Another thing that goes untouched. European and Japanese car employees also have unions (at home-based production facilities). Their wages are typically 10% higher than those in the United States. How's your Audi working out, OS?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:57 pm 
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Ruutu15 wrote:
How did it cost the country jobs?


You're seriously asking this? You don't think that if salaries were 75% of what they were and insurance was less subsidized that these companies would be moving fewer jobs outside of the country?

I know you're pro-union, but you can't sit here and argue with people without at least acknowledging that cons do in fact exist.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:58 pm 
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OS wrote:
Ruutu15 wrote:
How did it cost the country jobs?


You're seriously asking this? You don't think that if salaries were 75% of what they were and insurance was less subsidized that these companies would be moving fewer jobs outside of the country?

I know you're pro-union, but you can't sit here and argue with people without at least acknowledging that cons do in fact exist.


Certainly cons do exist. My only question in response is, if the wages are truly to blame, why didn't they move jobs overseas in the 70's and 80's when wages were a larger percentage of the final cost of the car?

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