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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 10:26 pm 
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Cops get that leeway because they risk their lives every day to protect us! Their families don't know if they're coming home at night! That's why Backstoppers has all those events. To raise money for fallen officers.

Charles Barkley himself said many neighborhoods would be like the Wild West if there were no police!


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:14 am 
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It's very annoying when I have to agree with JNE. Please go back to being an annoying little twerp so we can resume normal operations around here.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:07 am 
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JesusNEVERexisted wrote:
Cops get that leeway because they risk their lives every day to protect us! Their families don't know if they're coming home at night! That's why Backstoppers has all those events. To raise money for fallen officers.

Charles Barkley himself said many neighborhoods would be like the Wild West if there were no police!


Charles Barkley: authority figure on important topics?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:57 am 
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There's a difference between leeway and carte blanche.

I get what they do, but it's not a license to kill.

and btw... < 30 officers died as a result of criminal actions in 2013, nationally... but around 500 "felony suspects" were killed by police. Seems clear the police are more dangerous to us. And many people thing the 500 number is exceptionally conservative.

Look at this article from the Salt Lake Tribune where their research suggests that police kill more people than gangs, drug dealers, or child abuse.

This isn't about F the police, it's about accountability and the rule of law. There's this assumption that the cops are the good guys, and like any assumption it should be regularly challenged.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 3:20 pm 
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not_a_wings_fan wrote:
There's a difference between leeway and carte blanche.

I get what they do, but it's not a license to kill.

The thing is, police need to have the authority to take a dangerous subject down by any means necessary...and that sometimes means killing the individual.
The police force would be a joke if they had their hands tied and weren't allowed to act in the manner they do.
Yes, there are bad cops that abuse their authority. And those must be dealt with accordingly. You can't handcuff the entire police force because of the bad cops.

not_a_wings_fan wrote:
and btw... < 30 officers died as a result of criminal actions in 2013, nationally... but around 500 "felony suspects" were killed by police. Seems clear the police are more dangerous to us. And many people thing the 500 number is exceptionally conservative.

That's not really a fair statement.
How many of the 500+ suspects were a legitimate threat to someone and had to be put down?
I'm going to guess the vast majority.
Sure, in a perfect world, a police officer would never have to kill anyone. But this world is far from perfect, with a lot of dangerous criminals out there who, quite honestly, probably deserve to have their heads blown off.
Police have to deal with a LOT of shit...every single day. Now, I don't want to sound like I am making excuses for the cops who make bad decisions. But sometimes cops have no choice but to kill someone...and sometimes, unfortunately, they screw up and maybe kill someone that didn't have to be killed.
Those incidents need to be treated on a case by case basis.

not_a_wings_fan wrote:
Look at this article from the Salt Lake Tribune where their research suggests that police kill more people than gangs, drug dealers, or child abuse.

The article also states this:
Quote:
Nearly all of the fatal shootings by police have been deemed by county prosecutors to be justified. Only one — the 2012 shooting of Danielle Willard by West Valley City police — was deemed unjustified, and the subsequent criminal charge was thrown out last month by a judge.

And in the case described in the article, the kid refused to take his hands out of his pocket and started to lift up his shirt. All while a cop had a gun pointed at him and screaming at him to take his hand out of his pocket and put them in the air. He refused. Did he have to shoot the kid? I dunno...I wasn't there. But the kid was pretty much asking for it.

not_a_wings_fan wrote:
This isn't about F the police, it's about accountability and the rule of law. There's this assumption that the cops are the good guys, and like any assumption it should be regularly challenged.

I wouldn't disagree with that. Any killing needs to be reviewed and challenged. But here's the thing... they already are. Anytime a police officer shoots someone, they are put on paid leave while it is investigated...at least that is how I understand it. And any time their weapon is discharged, there is also an investigation.

Keep in mind also, that most cops go years at a time without firing their weapon. In general, the cops ARE the good guys. The vast majority of cops are stand up guys.

How many "incidents" do you think happen in a day involving a police officer nationwide? That includes traffic stops, 911 calls, suspicious activity, domestic complaints, etc, etc....everything.
It has to be a ton...probably tens of thousands of cases every day nationwide. But we only hear about the ones where something goes wrong and something happened that maybe shouldn't have in regards to excessive force used by a cop. And even then, in most of those cases, the victim was resisting arrest, or blatantly disobeying a police officer's request.

I think we all have to step back and understand that while a police officer is arresting a suspect whom they deem dangerous, if they lose their grip on their hands or let up from a knee on the back or "take it easy on him", the suspect could potentially get free, overpower the cop and maybe kill him. That is what is in the cop's mind. The cop is fighting for his life as well. Just because the suspect doesn't have a weapon, that doesn't mean anything. One punch to the face could knock out a cop and then who knows what happens.

I'm going to guess, that 99.999% of the cases where an officer is arresting someone and the suspect listens to the cop and does not resist arrest and are cooperative, there is no real issue.

Even in the choke hold case in NY, the suspect wasn't listening to the cops and resisted when they tried to handcuff him. Does that justify his death? Absolutely not...I thought that one should have wen to trial. But on the other hand, if he would have just obeyed the officer like he should have (since he was technically committing a felony and was being arrested), he'd still be alive. Same thing with Michael Brown.

The police absolutely must be held accountable for their actions. But those being arrested also need to be held accountable for their actions...they need to listen to the police officers or else they may face being subdued by force...and that is when accidents can happen and something can go wrong.

In short, don't put yourself in that position and you probably won't get shot or choked or whatever. But if you resist arrest, then things could escalate into something far worse and I don't think it's necessarily fair to automatically put the cop on trial for what happens...which is where the grand jury comes into play. Yes, investigate it, find out what happened and then decide if it needs to go to trial. If the cop was just doing his job, then he shouldn't have to go to trial for that. That sets a bad precedent.

I mean, do we want the police to effectively "serve and protect" the community, or do we want them shouting "Hey, stop that!" while shaking their head side to side and waiving their finger back and forth as they drive by in their cruiser?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:29 pm 
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cprice12 wrote:
Keep in mind also, that most cops go years at a time without firing their weapon. In general, the cops ARE the good guys. The vast majority of cops are stand up guys.


Officer Wilson had NEVER fired his gun before he shot Brown! I can't believe some fools say he's racist. If he was really racist he could've killed dozens of blacks in Ferguson years earlier!


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 1:50 pm 
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JesusNEVERexisted wrote:
cprice12 wrote:
Keep in mind also, that most cops go years at a time without firing their weapon. In general, the cops ARE the good guys. The vast majority of cops are stand up guys.


Officer Wilson had NEVER fired his gun before he shot Brown! I can't believe some fools say he's racist. If he was really racist he could've killed dozens of blacks in Ferguson years earlier!


The way you present your logic is annoying.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:26 pm 
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I agree most all cops are good guys doing a difficult job. I agree that they should have all the tools they need to be effective.

I think the fundamental thing that we are missing on is some believe the system works, that it does the job of challenging and investigating officer involved incidents effectively.

I don't. Not at all. I don't agree that the system does a good job of policing itself. I know too many cops, too many attorneys, and have seen too many things.

I don't think the prosecuting attorney for a jurisdiction should be in charge of grand jury proceedings or any prosecutions that come from them. It's a giant conflict of interests.

Further, I think your point of how infrequent cops fire their weapons is a good one - because it points out that maybe the COPS are too quick in their assessments as well. Maybe you don't need to come out and shoot so quickly... maybe you can talk a bit more.

There's a attitude problem that comes from the militarization of police forces - and that's one of the things the DoJ's assessment in Cleveland pointed out - that police often view the community as a threat, an enemy to be neutralized. This isn't freaking Baghdad, where guys took fire from hostiles every single day. This us v them mentality is the problem - FOR BOTH SIDES.

The issue is that one side has the weight of the law behind them and one side has no voice other than violence and civil unrest. It's a classic case of might makes right.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 3:47 pm 
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I agree with nawf. Not all cops are bad, but the idea that cops are held accountable for bad shootings is pretty hilarious to me. Since when is that true? There aren't investigations. There are "investigations."

The prosecutor works super closely with the police. They typically are working toward the same goal. Having a local prosecutor deal with a police shooting would be like having Doug Armstrong preside over a supplemental discipline hearing for a player on the Blues. There is a major conflict of interest there. If he goes all out prosecuting a cop, he risks losing the support of the police. If he decides not to pursue it, he faces criticism from the public. So, what they typically do is go to a grand jury. In 2013, there were 168,000 federal grand juries. 11 did not produce an indictment. Eleven. I know most of the cases in the spotlight right now aren't federal cases, but the principle translates to different levels of jurisdiction. The reason for such a high percentage is that if a prosecutor wants an indictment, he gets one. Yet, cops are rarely indicted by grand juries.

Nate Silver estimates the police kill 1000 people per year. That seems insanely high to me, especially when compared to the 40 killed by cops in Britain in the last CENTURY. They obviously have a dangerous job, and I think they should have the ability to protect themselves. But, I see 3 things as being true:

1. We have too many killings by cops here.
2. Much of it is race related.
3. Very infrequently is a cop held accountable.

The entire environment needs to change. Yeah, cops need to be able to go home at night. But, so do citizens. When the rate that cops kill citizens here is 2500 times higher than the UK, there's a problem. And I didn't just cherrypick the UK. I saw a stat a week or two ago (can't find it now though) that showed many European countries with similar numbers to the UK. That was just the only one I looked up today.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 4:19 pm 
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cardsfan04 wrote:
I agree with nawf. Not all cops are bad, but the idea that cops are held accountable for bad shootings is pretty hilarious to me. Since when is that true? There aren't investigations. There are "investigations."

The prosecutor works super closely with the police. They typically are working toward the same goal. Having a local prosecutor deal with a police shooting would be like having Doug Armstrong preside over a supplemental discipline hearing for a player on the Blues. There is a major conflict of interest there. If he goes all out prosecuting a cop, he risks losing the support of the police. If he decides not to pursue it, he faces criticism from the public. So, what they typically do is go to a grand jury. In 2013, there were 168,000 federal grand juries. 11 did not produce an indictment. Eleven. I know most of the cases in the spotlight right now aren't federal cases, but the principle translates to different levels of jurisdiction. The reason for such a high percentage is that if a prosecutor wants an indictment, he gets one. Yet, cops are rarely indicted by grand juries.

Nate Silver estimates the police kill 1000 people per year. That seems insanely high to me, especially when compared to the 40 killed by cops in Britain in the last CENTURY. They obviously have a dangerous job, and I think they should have the ability to protect themselves. But, I see 3 things as being true:

1. We have too many killings by cops here.
2. Much of it is race related.
3. Very infrequently is a cop held accountable.

The entire environment needs to change. Yeah, cops need to be able to go home at night. But, so do citizens. When the rate that cops kill citizens here is 2500 times higher than the UK, there's a problem. And I didn't just cherrypick the UK. I saw a stat a week or two ago (can't find it now though) that showed many European countries with similar numbers to the UK. That was just the only one I looked up today.


To be fair, the crime rate in the UK isn't near as high as it is here either.
Just look at all of the shootings we have that aren't cop related. It's insanely higher than any other country. Now imagine being a cop and having to deal with that possibility when going out on a call. I think there are some areas of the UK where the cops don't even carry guns, because they don't have to.

I'm not saying the system doesn't need to be addressed in some way. But I do think cops in general get a bad rap for the actions of the minority.

And again...if you are pulled over or even being arrested by a cop...if you cooperate and listen to what he says and do what he says, there isn't likely to be an issue. The vast majority of issues of "excessive force" seem to occur when someone is resisting arrest in some way or not listening to the cop and things then escalate and sometimes get out of hand...and then it might make the news. Nothing good is going to come from ignoring a cop's request or resisting when he is trying to grab your arm or handcuff you.

I think a far bigger problem that is being ignored, is crime. Crime in some areas is out of control. Just look at north St. Louis. Seemingly every night on the news they are talking about a shooting in N. St. Louis. It's crazy bad in parts of N. STL. There is a huge underlying problem with crime and I have zero ideas on how to fix it. It is going to take a major social mindset change in heavy crime areas...and that idea seems impossible or at the very least, a monumental undertaking that may take decades. It seems impossible.

I really feel sorry for police officers. They have a really shitty & scary job...and nowadays it is pretty much thankless and they have become the bad guys...which I am sure the criminals love.
What a shame.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 4:59 pm 
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cprice12 wrote:
cardsfan04 wrote:
I agree with nawf. Not all cops are bad, but the idea that cops are held accountable for bad shootings is pretty hilarious to me. Since when is that true? There aren't investigations. There are "investigations."

The prosecutor works super closely with the police. They typically are working toward the same goal. Having a local prosecutor deal with a police shooting would be like having Doug Armstrong preside over a supplemental discipline hearing for a player on the Blues. There is a major conflict of interest there. If he goes all out prosecuting a cop, he risks losing the support of the police. If he decides not to pursue it, he faces criticism from the public. So, what they typically do is go to a grand jury. In 2013, there were 168,000 federal grand juries. 11 did not produce an indictment. Eleven. I know most of the cases in the spotlight right now aren't federal cases, but the principle translates to different levels of jurisdiction. The reason for such a high percentage is that if a prosecutor wants an indictment, he gets one. Yet, cops are rarely indicted by grand juries.

Nate Silver estimates the police kill 1000 people per year. That seems insanely high to me, especially when compared to the 40 killed by cops in Britain in the last CENTURY. They obviously have a dangerous job, and I think they should have the ability to protect themselves. But, I see 3 things as being true:

1. We have too many killings by cops here.
2. Much of it is race related.
3. Very infrequently is a cop held accountable.

The entire environment needs to change. Yeah, cops need to be able to go home at night. But, so do citizens. When the rate that cops kill citizens here is 2500 times higher than the UK, there's a problem. And I didn't just cherrypick the UK. I saw a stat a week or two ago (can't find it now though) that showed many European countries with similar numbers to the UK. That was just the only one I looked up today.


To be fair, the crime rate in the UK isn't near as high as it is here either.
Just look at all of the shootings we have that aren't cop related. It's insanely higher than any other country. Now imagine being a cop and having to deal with that possibility when going out on a call. I think there are some areas of the UK where the cops don't even carry guns, because they don't have to.

I'm not saying the system doesn't need to be addressed in some way. But I do think cops in general get a bad rap for the actions of the minority.

And again...if you are pulled over or even being arrested by a cop...if you cooperate and listen to what he says and do what he says, there isn't likely to be an issue. The vast majority of issues of "excessive force" seem to occur when someone is resisting arrest in some way or not listening to the cop and things then escalate and sometimes get out of hand...and then it might make the news. Nothing good is going to come from ignoring a cop's request or resisting when he is trying to grab your arm or handcuff you.

I think a far bigger problem that is being ignored, is crime. Crime in some areas is out of control. Just look at north St. Louis. Seemingly every night on the news they are talking about a shooting in N. St. Louis. It's crazy bad in parts of N. STL. There is a huge underlying problem with crime and I have zero ideas on how to fix it. It is going to take a major social mindset change in heavy crime areas...and that idea seems impossible or at the very least, a monumental undertaking that may take decades. It seems impossible.

I really feel sorry for police officers. They have a really shitty & scary job...and nowadays it is pretty much thankless and they have become the bad guys...which I am sure the criminals love.
What a shame.


Those are fair points. It's not an apples to apples comparison between the US and UK. But, that's still a REALLY wide gap. Narrowing that gap isn't 100% on the police. I hope I'm not coming off like I'm saying, "Look at what all the racist cops are doing!!!" That's certainly not what I'm trying to project. The issue is broader than that. But, it is a part of the issue, and the one that, at least to me, seems to be the least addressed.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 6:03 pm 
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The bottom line is if you do what the cop tells you to do the first time, you don't have anything to worry about. Here we have an entire culture raised on "stop snitching", "don't trust authority", "ktp (kill the pigs)" I mean in what universe does that kind of attitude towards people whose job it is to protect and serve actually benefit you?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 11:16 pm 
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Let's be HONEST! British police don't carry guns so that's why they have only killed 40 people in the past century! The more guns around the more death follows. I can cite a Harvard study if anyone wants to see it. We are the ONLY first world nation with such a horrific infestation of guns.

One of the reason police here are so trigger happy is because any MORON can get a gun! Police want to go home at the end of the day and they are given the latitude to use deadly force if they deem it necessary.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 11:54 pm 
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Hey, your view works for you. Your anecdotal experiences are the truth in your world, so that's fine.

My experiences are just different than yours, I guess.

I have seen too many cops threaten, intimidate, and harass people just because they can - people who were compliant with the officers' instructions.

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