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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:41 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:14 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:53 pm 
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I actually like this idea.
Maybe it will keep the thread derailing religious chatter out of the other threads.

Just keep it relatively civil. Thanks.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 3:22 am 
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Religion is just a myth and fairy tale. It was created by ancient man who feared death & the unknown. Remember in ancient times (and even recently in some places) as many as HALF of children died during childbirth! So man had to create a fictional fairy tale to explain their suffering!

MAKES PERFECT SENSE & YOU ALL KNOW IT!

I told a pastor this once after a church service & EVEN HE AGREED IT MADE SENSE! What could he possibly say to refute me? NOTHING!!

DEAL you ChristNUTS!


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 9:09 am 
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I prefer Jesus freak thanks. :lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 9:49 am 
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Allow me to ask you this, JNE.

A little background: I was raised Roman Catholic, my mother is extremely religious and attends mass twice a day, every day, and is very active in the church. My grandmother (her mother) was also very religious, such is the case I guess with most 100% Italians. My dad, not religious at all, a man of the sciences much like me, but he played along and went to church and encouraged religious education. In fact, he (surprisingly) was the one who approached me recently about getting my son, Ian, baptized. Not my mother. This kind of surprised me, but that's not relevant to my question for you.

If you have children someday, would you deny them the magic of Christmas because you don't agree with the premise of the holiday? I am a self proclaimed agnostic and, as a man of science myself, need proof of everything, which is why I can't accept the concept of a God until I see concrete evidence. But I would never deny my child the fun of Christmas that I had growing up every year, the story of Santa Claus, the message of love, giving, sharing and family. Even though the holiday is rooted in a deep religious foundation, I wouldn't hesitate to tell my child why Christmas exists, the origin of Christmas and the meaning of Christmas. Would you?

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 10:19 am 
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glen a richter wrote:
Allow me to ask you this, JNE.

A little background: I was raised Roman Catholic, my mother is extremely religious and attends mass twice a day, every day, and is very active in the church. My grandmother (her mother) was also very religious, such is the case I guess with most 100% Italians. My dad, not religious at all, a man of the sciences much like me, but he played along and went to church and encouraged religious education. In fact, he (surprisingly) was the one who approached me recently about getting my son, Ian, baptized. Not my mother. This kind of surprised me, but that's not relevant to my question for you.

If you have children someday, would you deny them the magic of Christmas because you don't agree with the premise of the holiday? I am a self proclaimed agnostic and, as a man of science myself, need proof of everything, which is why I can't accept the concept of a God until I see concrete evidence. But I would never deny my child the fun of Christmas that I had growing up every year, the story of Santa Claus, the message of love, giving, sharing and family. Even though the holiday is rooted in a deep religious foundation, I wouldn't hesitate to tell my child why Christmas exists, the origin of Christmas and the meaning of Christmas. Would you?
I am from much the same background as you - I gave up Catholicism for Lent one year and, by the Grace of God, never went back.

But that's my decision. I would never deny my children the chance to form their own opinions and, further, feel that understanding religion and being knowledgeable about it is integral to succeeding and understanding the country we live in. So much of what we do and how we view things is rooted in the shared Judeo Christian background.

The step I see from JNE is to be as passionately against Christians as Evangelical Christians are passionately for Christ. I feel like both positions are an error, to be honest. The opposite of love should properly be known as indifference - it still takes passion to hate, lol. If one was really an atheist, it wouldn't make any difference what someone else believed and you wouldn't be compelled to prove you were right.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 11:30 am 
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glen a richter wrote:
Allow me to ask you this, JNE.

A little background: I was raised Roman Catholic, my mother is extremely religious and attends mass twice a day, every day, and is very active in the church. My grandmother (her mother) was also very religious, such is the case I guess with most 100% Italians. My dad, not religious at all, a man of the sciences much like me, but he played along and went to church and encouraged religious education. In fact, he (surprisingly) was the one who approached me recently about getting my son, Ian, baptized. Not my mother. This kind of surprised me, but that's not relevant to my question for you.

If you have children someday, would you deny them the magic of Christmas because you don't agree with the premise of the holiday? I am a self proclaimed agnostic and, as a man of science myself, need proof of everything, which is why I can't accept the concept of a God until I see concrete evidence. But I would never deny my child the fun of Christmas that I had growing up every year, the story of Santa Claus, the message of love, giving, sharing and family. Even though the holiday is rooted in a deep religious foundation, I wouldn't hesitate to tell my child why Christmas exists, the origin of Christmas and the meaning of Christmas. Would you?


That sounds fairly similar to my background. I was raised Catholic. Went to PSR (that's a one night a week religion class for kids in public school) while in grade school. Then went to Catholic HS. My dad is super religious, but if I had to pick a label for myself, it's probably agnostic.

But, even if I'm not super into the religious aspect of Christmas, it's still my favorite holiday. To me, Christmas isn't about Jesus being born. It's about being with family and friends and giving and stabbing people in the eyes with ice picks to get the last Furby (well, maybe not that one). I understand that it has really important religious significance to a lot of people, and that's great. But, when I have kids, I would never dream of denying them Christmas even if I don't relate with the religious significance.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 11:56 am 
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glen a richter wrote:
Allow me to ask you this, JNE.

A little background: I was raised Roman Catholic, my mother is extremely religious and attends mass twice a day, every day, and is very active in the church. My grandmother (her mother) was also very religious, such is the case I guess with most 100% Italians. My dad, not religious at all, a man of the sciences much like me, but he played along and went to church and encouraged religious education. In fact, he (surprisingly) was the one who approached me recently about getting my son, Ian, baptized. Not my mother. This kind of surprised me, but that's not relevant to my question for you.

If you have children someday, would you deny them the magic of Christmas because you don't agree with the premise of the holiday? I am a self proclaimed agnostic and, as a man of science myself, need proof of everything, which is why I can't accept the concept of a God until I see concrete evidence. But I would never deny my child the fun of Christmas that I had growing up every year, the story of Santa Claus, the message of love, giving, sharing and family. Even though the holiday is rooted in a deep religious foundation, I wouldn't hesitate to tell my child why Christmas exists, the origin of Christmas and the meaning of Christmas. Would you?


I said I am against the bible, Jesus, and religious dogma but NOT Xmas! I celebrated Xmas too growing up and put up a tree and still do sometimes! You realize Xmas is PAGAN and is simply the Winter Solstice? Christian theocracies in Europe pre 1700 BANNED Xmas because it was Pagan and NOT Christian! That is just more evidence at how INSANE and FAKE religion is! The Xmas tree is also Pagan and Christians called it DEMONIC when first used in Europe!

Plus you forget that Christmas in America is so commercialized it is NOT Christian! Since America is very secular people have to appeal to EVERYONE not just Christians. Go look at sales and ads in the weekend paper and in stores during the Xmas season and it's all about being festive and big sales but virtually NOTHING about Jesus!

LOL..this shows you know very little about Christianity if you didn't know Xmas was once banned by Christians THEMSELVES and is actually just the Winter Solstice!


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 2:17 pm 
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JesusNEVERexisted wrote:
glen a richter wrote:
Allow me to ask you this, JNE.

A little background: I was raised Roman Catholic, my mother is extremely religious and attends mass twice a day, every day, and is very active in the church. My grandmother (her mother) was also very religious, such is the case I guess with most 100% Italians. My dad, not religious at all, a man of the sciences much like me, but he played along and went to church and encouraged religious education. In fact, he (surprisingly) was the one who approached me recently about getting my son, Ian, baptized. Not my mother. This kind of surprised me, but that's not relevant to my question for you.

If you have children someday, would you deny them the magic of Christmas because you don't agree with the premise of the holiday? I am a self proclaimed agnostic and, as a man of science myself, need proof of everything, which is why I can't accept the concept of a God until I see concrete evidence. But I would never deny my child the fun of Christmas that I had growing up every year, the story of Santa Claus, the message of love, giving, sharing and family. Even though the holiday is rooted in a deep religious foundation, I wouldn't hesitate to tell my child why Christmas exists, the origin of Christmas and the meaning of Christmas. Would you?


I said I am against the bible, Jesus, and religious dogma but NOT Xmas! I celebrated Xmas too growing up and put up a tree and still do sometimes! You realize Xmas is PAGAN and is simply the Winter Solstice? Christian theocracies in Europe pre 1700 BANNED Xmas because it was Pagan and NOT Christian! That is just more evidence at how INSANE and FAKE religion is! The Xmas tree is also Pagan and Christians called it DEMONIC when first used in Europe!

Plus you forget that Christmas in America is so commercialized it is NOT Christian! Since America is very secular people have to appeal to EVERYONE not just Christians. Go look at sales and ads in the weekend paper and in stores during the Xmas season and it's all about being festive and big sales but virtually NOTHING about Jesus!

LOL..this shows you know very little about Christianity if you didn't know Xmas was once banned by Christians THEMSELVES and is actually just the Winter Solstice!

Easy, tiger. When you say "Christian theocracies" banned Christmas, you're not being entirely truthful. The time period you're speaking of was one in which Puritans ruled the English Parliament. I'm sure you're aware the Puritans were a different brand of religious fanatic. Besides, the "ban" was lifted when they were out of power. As far as 12/25 having nothing to do with Jesus' actual birthday....you'll get no argument here as nobody is positive when the guy was born.

Personally, as long as a faith in a higher being makes you happy...knock yourself out. I'm more in the "leave and let live" camp. If you want to believe in talking snakes and a wooden boat full of all the animals in the world and it doesn't affect my life in the least....please have at it.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 3:29 pm 
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JesusNEVERexisted wrote:
Plus you forget that Christmas in America is so commercialized it is NOT Christian! Since America is very secular people have to appeal to EVERYONE not just Christians. Go look at sales and ads in the weekend paper and in stores during the Xmas season and it's all about being festive and big sales but virtually NOTHING about Jesus!


While I do agree that Christmas has become disgustingly commercialized, stores and ads have nothing to do with how some people celebrate the holiday. I'm not disagreeing with you, but there are people I know (Christians) that very much minimize the commercial aspects of the holiday and reduce it to strictly celebration of the birth of Christ. All I'm saying is you can't lump everyone in just because stores are trying to make a buck.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:50 pm 
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Toasted Oates, what are you talking about?? I made it clear I do NOT have any belief in a higher power which Is just a fairy tale. I'm on your side here. Look at my screen name! I made it unequivocally clear that I don't believe in a book of talking snakes & unicorns (bible)! It's all mythology regardless of which religion you believe.

Miles, I was saying it is VERY possible to celebrate Christmas without being a Christian! You can still put up a tree, be festive, listen to holiday music, exchange gifts, etc.. In fact I bet that's what the majority of Americans do! Or very close to the majority.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 9:28 pm 
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JesusNEVERexisted wrote:
Toasted Oates, what are you talking about?? I made it clear I do NOT have any belief in a higher power which Is just a fairy tale. I'm on your side here. Look at my screen name! I made it unequivocally clear that I don't believe in a book of talking snakes & unicorns (bible)! It's all mythology regardless of which religion you believe.

Miles, I was saying it is VERY possible to celebrate Christmas without being a Christian! You can still put up a tree, be festive, listen to holiday music, exchange gifts, etc.. In fact I bet that's what the majority of Americans do! Or very close to the majority.

You're missing the point, or perhaps I wasn't clear. You've been very critical and condescending of Christians and their beliefs. Personally, I think if those beliefs can change a person's life for the better, I'm not sure how you can be so sour over it and go so far as to create an Internet troll persona based on it. Let's say a father and husband is addicted to drugs and/or alcohol. Let's then say he has an epiphany or a breaking point and attributes it to "finding Jesus." If that epiphany makes him a better person and a more positive contributor to society, that's a positive for everyone.

Now we could really delve deep into a discussion about the absurdity of religion and how is has cost more lives than it has made. The Bible should be challenged and it certainly is in many progressive churches that I've been to in our area. You're vocal about pastors you've spoken to, but those conversations don't surprise me. The truth is, while some of us may scoff at a Christian life on the straight and narrow, that lifestyle certainly has its merits whether fueled by blind faith or not.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 5:19 am 
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I see what you are saying Oatsie and I agree it serves a purpose if they use a fairy tale to turn their lives around. However you know if you look at all the atrocities Christians have committed over the past 2000 years they have done a LOT more harm than good like wiping out ENTIRE civilizations!

It's just that the hypocrisy of Christians is so sickening! They call other gods and religions FAKE yet using that same logic their religion is fake too! NO ONE has any proof! Over the years I have even spoken to clergy about this and even they admit they cannot meet a higher burden of proof than any other religion!


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:52 am 
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JesusNEVERexisted wrote:
I see what you are saying Oatsie and I agree it serves a purpose if they use a fairy tale to turn their lives around. However you know if you look at all the atrocities Christians have committed over the past 2000 years they have done a LOT more harm than good like wiping out ENTIRE civilizations!

It's just that the hypocrisy of Christians is so sickening! They call other gods and religions FAKE yet using that same logic their religion is fake too! NO ONE has any proof! Over the years I have even spoken to clergy about this and even they admit they cannot meet a higher burden of proof than any other religion!


It seems to me that most people have this major issue with Christians. We are all 'hypocrites' and it evidently turns people off to religion in general. But that is just the human coming out of us, not Christ. A true believer in Christ understands that it is only through Christ that we may begin to show the 'fruits of the spirit' (holy spirit). Humans (Jews and Gentiles) are born into this world at odds with God due to the sinful nature of man. God cannot be in the presence of evil and that includes us. When we accept Christ as our savior, he then takes on our sin, covering it with his sacrificial blood. Nothing we do can save us and we are all bound to fall short of the glory and goodness of God. All this is to say that all men sin, especially Christians. If church were full of perfect people, we would have no need for a savior. People look at Christians and expect to see Christ and that is what we strive to do but always fall short in our attempt. Does this mean we are hypocrites? No, it means we are human and flawed beings that are far from perfect and that only through Christ can we have a relationship with God (which was the plan and intention of God all along. God made us with free will and knew we would fail and had to make a way to regain this relationship he had with Adam in the beginning).

When you speak of all the deaths brought about by Christianity, I would propose that this is 'man's' fault just like all the other malevolent things men of other cultures, sects, beliefs and backgrounds are capable of. People like to blame God for these atrocities but really it is just men not leaning on Gods word and doing things through themselves and not letting God do things through them.

BTW, all other religions are fake or cults (made from men's fear of the unknown and trying to create a reality which makes them feel secure). The Bible states that there is only one God and that only through Christ may you be saved. It is not hypocritical to believe that if it is the truth. I know, I know.... Jesus never existed right...

Christians know that their God is real because of the relationship they have with God. It does require faith (the Bible states as much). Faith aside, the tenants of the Bible are Gods roadmap for humanity to live a positive and fulfilling life. I would propose that if all men would read the Bible and live by its tenants, we would all live in a much better environment.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 11:54 am 
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Flake, the problem with what you say about Christ is that it is pure MYTH and nothing else! I went to church with a neighbor over the holidays just for fun and it is the biggest SCAM I've ever seen! It was 90 minutes of stupid chanting and singing, a play for the kids, and then quoting some bible verses. You realize they could've been talking about Hercules, Krishna, Osiris, Mithras, Horus, Buddha or a ZILLION other gods?

Look up the word EVIDENTIARY. You obviously don't know what it means because there is NOTHING about Jesus or the bible that is any more evidentiary than ANY other god or religion!

Also you are wrong that it's only man's fault for all those Christian atrocitres. Remember they did it in the NAME of Christ! HUNDREDS of MILLIONS killed for Christ! I personally don't think this religion should be legal. They killed a LOT more than the Nazis ever did!


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:25 pm 
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Issue two!

JNE, suppose that you die tonight and when you do, you find out there is a God. How will you approach that?

For The Flake (and others), who is clearly a man of strong religious conviction: similar question, you die tonight but when you do you find out that, although there is a God, it's not the same God you worshipped. How will you approach that?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 7:52 am 
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glen a richter wrote:
Issue two!

JNE, suppose that you die tonight and when you do, you find out there is a God. How will you approach that?

For The Flake (and others), who is clearly a man of strong religious conviction: similar question, you die tonight but when you do you find out that, although there is a God, it's not the same God you worshipped. How will you approach that?

If I die and meet a god I will not have to tell him anything. He's supposed to know all, right? The god will know why or why I did not choose to believe.

I'm okay with how I'm living my life and how I treat others. That's good enough for me, I'll sleep well tonight.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:32 am 
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I have a simply question for Christians on here like Flake and any others. 90% of the scriptures out there are NOT Christian like the Avesta, Adi Granth, Dhammapada, Book Certitude, Bhagvad Gita, Ramayana, Mahabharata, Tibetan Book of the Dead, etc. etc.

Christians SCOFF at those and say "those are FAKE!". So if humans can make up ALL those other stories of gods they can make up the bible too! The bible is simply a book of allegories and parables that were NEVER meant to be taken literally! Nowhere in the bible does it say we intend these stories and characters to be taken literally!

I have told that to clergy and even they have NO answer! It's not like when you go to church they give you evidence the stories and characters they talk about are real!


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 11:33 am 
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JesusNEVERexisted wrote:
I have a simply question for Christians on here like Flake and any others. 90% of the scriptures out there are NOT Christian like the Avesta, Adi Granth, Dhammapada, Book Certitude, Bhagvad Gita, Ramayana, Mahabharata, Tibetan Book of the Dead, etc. etc.

Christians SCOFF at those and say "those are FAKE!". So if humans can make up ALL those other stories of gods they can make up the bible too! The bible is simply a book of allegories and parables that were NEVER meant to be taken literally! Nowhere in the bible does it say we intend these stories and characters to be taken literally!

I have told that to clergy and even they have NO answer! It's not like when you go to church they give you evidence the stories and characters they talk about are real!


That is what has always bothered me. There are all of these religions...and they all say the other is wrong. And nobody knows for sure...but they will argue hard for it. It's just messed up.
It reminds me of a one panel comic that shows a caveman or tribesman kneeling and praying to a pile of rocks that represents his God. Two other tribal members are laughing at him as they stand next to their own pile of rocks and they are saying, "Silly Grog...he thinks his pile of rocks is the real God."

I like to talk about Mythology and how folks back then who believed 100% in "The Gods" (Greek & Roman). But today, everyone pretty much laughs that stuff off as storybook stuff...but people really believed that stuff for a long, long time. Hmmm...and how is that any different than religion today? It's not. Not at all. It's exactly the same.

Religion makes a lot of people feel better about certain things, and that is fine. If it makes someone feel good to go to church and worship, good for them. That's great.
Giving a lot of money to the church? Ummm...yeah...not great. Don't do that. Some religions request 10% of your income in the offering plate. 10%. That's insane. If you want to give a few bucks a week, as a sort of admission fee, to the church because you appreciate what they do and because you enjoy your time there, and you might attend the pancake breakfast, or the fall carnival, that's fine. There is nothing wrong with that. That's nice.
But...
Don't be stupid either. Don't give 10% or more of your hard earned salary to the church. That's insane. If you want to give a bunch of money away, give it to a charity or to help fund a disease or condition, or to help the homeless, or whatever. That's a much more worthwhile cause.

What I tend to frown on is how religion gets pushed on other people and into their lives for some reason. And it's not religion in general that gets pushed, it's a specific type of religion. And don't even think about suggesting that the focus be on religion in general so as to not offend any particular group, because then what you have is Christians (usually) outraged and up in arms because of some non-existent war against their religion.

Anyone who gets angry at someone for saying "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas", is a baffoon.
I say both. I don't get offended at either because I'm not an asshat. The world needs to lighten up and realize that organized religion, if taken too seriously by the wrong people, can cause a lot of problems and can be very, very negative.

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