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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 12:43 pm 
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I agree with JNE on this, as well. Saying that all other religions are a load of garbage and then turning around and saying that Christianity, the bible, Jesus and God represent the only real religion is the height of arrogance. How can you be so sure that you're right and everyone else is wrong? What if you died and met Muhammad instead of Jesus? What if you died and God turned out to be a vengeful dick who wouldn't let you into heaven because you pulled some girls hair in 1st grade? What if you died and found out Satan ruled over heaven instead? Seriously, how can you say with 100% certainty any of these scenarios are true or false unless you've personally experienced the afterlife?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 12:57 pm 
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glen a richter wrote:
I agree with JNE on this, as well. Saying that all other religions are a load of garbage and then turning around and saying that Christianity, the bible, Jesus and God represent the only real religion is the height of arrogance. How can you be so sure that you're right and everyone else is wrong? What if you died and met Muhammad instead of Jesus? What if you died and God turned out to be a vengeful dick who wouldn't let you into heaven because you pulled some girls hair in 1st grade? What if you died and found out Satan ruled over heaven instead? Seriously, how can you say with 100% certainty any of these scenarios are true or false unless you've personally experienced the afterlife?


You can't. That's why they call it faith. Which is a bit of a cop out. There is also: "The Lord works in mysterious ways." Which just means that they can't really explain why a supposedly loving God would let horrific atrocities happen to innocent people. But yeah, God is still in charge and in control of everything. But you can't blame God because he gave you have free will so you can do whatever you want and it's your fault, not God's (how convenient). Ahem, now come to our meetings and give us money or you won't get into heaven.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:06 pm 
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This free will argument is the biggest COP OUT & MEGA BS! WHY can't god help us and intervene? Religious moron says it's because god gives us free will. They WHY doesn't god help when we REALLY need it? Religious moron says god works in mysterious ways and we CAN'T question him!

Translation: Ancient man made up these bullsh*t god stories due to fear of death and the unknown and unfortunately many humans are still dumb enough to fall for it!

It's good glen & cprice haven't fallen for it! :okman:


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 4:35 pm 
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JesusNEVERexisted wrote:
This free will argument is the biggest COP OUT & MEGA BS! WHY can't god help us and intervene? Religious moron says it's because god gives us free will. They WHY doesn't god help when we REALLY need it? Religious moron says god works in mysterious ways and we CAN'T question him!

Translation: Ancient man made up these bullsh*t god stories due to fear of death and the unknown and unfortunately many humans are still dumb enough to fall for it!

It's good glen & cprice haven't fallen for it! :okman:


Religious moron? Come on man.

The multiple religion thing that cprice brought up is a big thing that I struggle with and why I'm not overly religious anymore. But, why is it "good" if somebody hasn't "fallen for it?" That implies that it's bad if somebody does believe. And why is somebody a moron if they are religious? If somebody finds happiness through religion, good for them. Doesn't make them a moron. It just means they believe something you don't.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:24 am 
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JesusNEVERexisted wrote:
This free will argument is the biggest COP OUT & MEGA BS! WHY can't god help us and intervene? Religious moron says it's because god gives us free will. They WHY doesn't god help when we REALLY need it? Religious moron says god works in mysterious ways and we CAN'T question him!

Translation: Ancient man made up these bullsh*t god stories due to fear of death and the unknown and unfortunately many humans are still dumb enough to fall for it!

It's good glen & cprice haven't fallen for it! :okman:


You don't have to call people morons.
Like I said earlier, people believe on different levels. Just simply going to church makes some people feel good...and that is fine. Good for them. They are not morons.
People who give all of their hard earned life savings to televangelists....now those folks may be morons.
But from my experience, the vast majority of people who go to church are good people who just enjoy going to church. They aren't crazy about it, they just go because it makes them feel good. And there is nothing at all moronic about that.

You can disagree with folks and their beliefs (I often do) but you don't have to be an uppity asshole about it

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 4:50 am 
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Ok, call them naive then. The free will argument is EASILY debunked and destroyed!

REGARDLESS of whether there is a god (or gods) or not WE STILL HAVE FREE WILL! If Jesus, Krishna, Allah, Zeus, Hercules or whoever was standing right in front of you U can shake their hand, spit in their face, shoot them, run away, etc.. The point is you STILL have free will whether a god exists or not so the argument religious people make about free will is dead on arrival! I once told that to a pastor and even he had NO answer!

As far as making a person feel good if they go to church, temple, or mosque I have no problem with that. Remember we are discussing the veracity of religion. People may feel good seeing a tarot card reader or psychic but that doesn't mean they aren't scammers!


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:15 pm 
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glen a richter wrote:
I agree with JNE on this, as well. Saying that all other religions are a load of garbage and then turning around and saying that Christianity, the bible, Jesus and God represent the only real religion is the height of arrogance. How can you be so sure that you're right and everyone else is wrong? What if you died and met Muhammad instead of Jesus? What if you died and God turned out to be a vengeful dick who wouldn't let you into heaven because you pulled some girls hair in 1st grade? What if you died and found out Satan ruled over heaven instead? Seriously, how can you say with 100% certainty any of these scenarios are true or false unless you've personally experienced the afterlife?


Only if its not the truth. The Bible states as much and in my opinion is the unequivocal truth. The Bible explains who God is (that is what the whole book is about...Jesus...even the Old Testament is about the coming messiah who will save the world from its own sin) and is very clear, concise, and congruent. I know what to expect when I die and I'm am positive beyond a shadow of doubt that my Lord and Savior will be there waiting to say to me, "Well done my good and faithful servant".

You can't possibly understand what joy this brings me. Much like when you please your earthly father only ten fold, there is a sense of satisfaction and fulfillment.

I could say that I was the president of the United States but that doesn't mean that I am. These other religions are man made which actually support what JNE sais. Mankind has created all sorts of things to try and control the masses and religion is the #1 tool.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:22 pm 
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JesusNEVERexisted wrote:
This free will argument is the biggest COP OUT & MEGA BS! WHY can't god help us and intervene? Religious moron says it's because god gives us free will. They WHY doesn't god help when we REALLY need it? Religious moron says god works in mysterious ways and we CAN'T question him!

Translation: Ancient man made up these bullsh*t god stories due to fear of death and the unknown and unfortunately many humans are still dumb enough to fall for it!

It's good glen & cprice haven't fallen for it! :okman:


God has a plan for each and every one of us. I constantly pray for Gods will to be done in my life. You can see time and time again in the Bible and in real life, that we are tested and put through trials. Job is the best know person in the Bible who was tested by Satan ( God allowed it) and lost everything, his wife, his children, his livelihood, his possessions...etc., he never lost his faith in God nor did he turn his back on God due to his situation. Trials and tribulations are meant to grow us in our spiritual walk with God to make us better individuals / Christians.

Just remember when Adam / Eve fell from grace, the world became corrupt and Satan will do whatever he can to kill, steal and destroy you. Only through Gods grace can you combat the wicked plans of Satan. If you have not then you are defenseless.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:25 pm 
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JesusNEVERexisted wrote:
I have a simply question for Christians on here like Flake and any others. 90% of the scriptures out there are NOT Christian like the Avesta, Adi Granth, Dhammapada, Book Certitude, Bhagvad Gita, Ramayana, Mahabharata, Tibetan Book of the Dead, etc. etc.

Christians SCOFF at those and say "those are FAKE!". So if humans can make up ALL those other stories of gods they can make up the bible too! The bible is simply a book of allegories and parables that were NEVER meant to be taken literally! Nowhere in the bible does it say we intend these stories and characters to be taken literally!

I have told that to clergy and even they have NO answer! It's not like when you go to church they give you evidence the stories and characters they talk about are real!


I would say you've been talking to the wrong priest / preacher then!!!!

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:12 pm 
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cprice12 wrote:
JesusNEVERexisted wrote:
I have a simply question for Christians on here like Flake and any others. 90% of the scriptures out there are NOT Christian like the Avesta, Adi Granth, Dhammapada, Book Certitude, Bhagvad Gita, Ramayana, Mahabharata, Tibetan Book of the Dead, etc. etc.

Christians SCOFF at those and say "those are FAKE!". So if humans can make up ALL those other stories of gods they can make up the bible too! The bible is simply a book of allegories and parables that were NEVER meant to be taken literally! Nowhere in the bible does it say we intend these stories and characters to be taken literally!

I have told that to clergy and even they have NO answer! It's not like when you go to church they give you evidence the stories and characters they talk about are real!


That is what has always bothered me. There are all of these religions...and they all say the other is wrong. And nobody knows for sure...but they will argue hard for it. It's just messed up.
It reminds me of a one panel comic that shows a caveman or tribesman kneeling and praying to a pile of rocks that represents his God. Two other tribal members are laughing at him as they stand next to their own pile of rocks and they are saying, "Silly Grog...he thinks his pile of rocks is the real God."

I like to talk about Mythology and how folks back then who believed 100% in "The Gods" (Greek & Roman). But today, everyone pretty much laughs that stuff off as storybook stuff...but people really believed that stuff for a long, long time. Hmmm...and how is that any different than religion today? It's not. Not at all. It's exactly the same.

Religion makes a lot of people feel better about certain things, and that is fine. If it makes someone feel good to go to church and worship, good for them. That's great.
Giving a lot of money to the church? Ummm...yeah...not great. Don't do that. Some religions request 10% of your income in the offering plate. 10%. That's insane. If you want to give a few bucks a week, as a sort of admission fee, to the church because you appreciate what they do and because you enjoy your time there, and you might attend the pancake breakfast, or the fall carnival, that's fine. There is nothing wrong with that. That's nice.
But...
Don't be stupid either. Don't give 10% or more of your hard earned salary to the church. That's insane. If you want to give a bunch of money away, give it to a charity or to help fund a disease or condition, or to help the homeless, or whatever. That's a much more worthwhile cause.

What I tend to frown on is how religion gets pushed on other people and into their lives for some reason. And it's not religion in general that gets pushed, it's a specific type of religion. And don't even think about suggesting that the focus be on religion in general so as to not offend any particular group, because then what you have is Christians (usually) outraged and up in arms because of some non-existent war against their religion.

Anyone who gets angry at someone for saying "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas", is a baffoon.
I say both. I don't get offended at either because I'm not an asshat. The world needs to lighten up and realize that organized religion, if taken too seriously by the wrong people, can cause a lot of problems and can be very, very negative.


Tithing 10% is a commandment from God. I gladly give 10% of my money to the church, although it doesn't all go to my local church. If I see a good faith based organization that is doing good in the community and spreading the gospel, I give to those organizations as well and account that to my tithe. I can't remember the numbers but a few years ago I read an article that showed percentage of 'help' that faith based organization gave around the world and it was astounding. Our local church uses tithe and other donations to give families Christmas and Thanksgiving dinners, they help people get off the street and give them a hand up in life. They assist families in need. I can think of 1 family in our church who lived in a baseball dugout every day until our church stepped in to help. They are still struggling but they have a home and food and are working. Aside from that, giving to others in general is a great thing and not foolish at all. There are a couple of exceptions to this rule of thumb but.... The money I give is helping cure a disease, its called sin. There is only one cure for this disease.

Now on the flip side, you need to find the right receptacle to tithe to and learn in. There are lots of 'ministers' out there that are not servants of God but of themselves. You may as well flush your money down the toilet if you give to them. It took my wife and I 3 years when we moved to find a church that not only could feed us the 'meat and potatoes' of the Bible that we needed but that had their priorities in the right place as servants and not bleeders and con men. If you spend just a little time and use discernment as the Bible tells you to do, they are easy to spot.

In todays PC world of appeasement and appetite, I can understand why you think religion is ok but if you push a specific religion, that is bad. Truth is constantly being misguided and construed by Satan. That is his plan, to lead you away from the truth and these other religious avenues are the perfect conduit for that. The bible states that if you are 'luke warm' that God will spew you out of his mouth. There are a lot of 'luke warm' people out there who practice the Christian faith and I disagree with you 100%. What we need is a whole multitude of people who are 'on fire' for the Lord and want nothing more than to serve and worship their creator. That would be very dangerous for sin and hatred!! People who are in the world need to wake up and take their creator much more seriously because if they don't, It could be very, very bad for them when the Lord returns.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 2:34 pm 
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Flake, you said it's your OPINION. That's the key! The bible could be just as FICTIONAL as any other scripture. You were NOT around back then so you obviously don't know! One school of thought is the bible is simply a book of allegories and parables that were never meant to be taken literally!

Always remember the same way you dismiss other scriptures the bible can be dismissed as well! A neighbor invited me to church over the holidays and I went just out of curiousity. Even the head pastor said it's FAITH not fact!


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 2:48 pm 
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JesusNEVERexisted wrote:
Flake, you said it's your OPINION. That's the key! The bible could be just as FICTIONAL as any other scripture. You were NOT around back then so you obviously don't know! One school of thought is the bible is simply a book of allegories and parables that were never meant to be taken literally!

Always remember the same way you dismiss other scriptures the bible can be dismissed as well! A neighbor invited me to church over the holidays and I went just out of curiousity. Even the head pastor said it's FAITH not fact!


He's wrong. The Bible is truth.... our part is faith.

BTW, I know I'll never convince you of this truth or convict you of the truth, that's Gods job. I will tell you as much as I know and if you don't accept the word, then I will shake the dust off my feet and move on. Your free to decide and go on about your life (free will right lol). I will tell you though that God has blessed me and my family and my testimony is REAL. I have been in church since I've been alive. Coming from a Pentecostal background, I have seen God work in peoples lives and there is no argument that exists that will change my mind of this reality. You can call me a moron or naïve if you wish but it will not change the truth of Gods love and the reality that he gave his only son to die on the cross for a wretched sinner like me and that I will be eternally grateful.

I don't know how many are on this forum or if anyone even cares for what I say, but if just one is turned toward Christ, it will all be worth it. Love ya bud and God bless you.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 3:04 pm 
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JNE, I don't agree with all of your views about religion, but I am closer to some of your views than to the Christian crowd.

I do feel that most religious writings are received wisdom that have truth beneath them, but that the truth has been lost in the repeated retellings. I won't go into it, but I am actually in the ancient astronaut camp - that misunderstood science has always been considered "supernatural" or "miraculous." (The story of Genesis in the Torah is clearly about terra-forming; the second story is about genetic alteration of the human species in God's image and likeness; the whirl wind that took Elijah was simply a vehicle, etc. This explanation fits well with other ancient religious texts as well.)

JNE, the key here is that you don't have to be condescending and rude to people who don't share your views. It sometimes feels like you need to belittle people's beliefs to make yourself feel better about your own. It just seems like you are maybe still questioning or you wouldn't need to prove that you are "right" to others.

If you have the truth, just be quiet and enjoy it.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 3:04 pm 
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Flake, your fanatical dogma is a HUGE turn off and it's why Christianity is a dying religion all over the west! Churches are empty all over Europe and did you know thousands of churches close every year in America due to low attendance?

You come across as a total a-hole by saying "everyone other point of view is wrong but mine!". If you had that attitude in school you'd be hated by everyone with that awful holier than thou attitude.

We have 100 billion brain cells and even if some are damaged it can drastically alter your personality or put you in a coma! Neuroscience disproves an afterlife since consciousness is IMPOSSIBLE once the brain dies. Whenever you do die and experience neural blackout you will realize there is no Jesus and the entire bible is a LIE. Then you will think of me and realize how right I was!


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 3:55 pm 
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JesusNEVERexisted wrote:
Flake, your fanatical dogma is a HUGE turn off and it's why Christianity is a dying religion all over the west! Churches are empty all over Europe and did you know thousands of churches close every year in America due to low attendance?

You come across as a total a-hole by saying "everyone other point of view is wrong but mine!". If you had that attitude in school you'd be hated by everyone with that awful holier than thou attitude.


Holy irony!!! I think that was probably intentional irony, but still funny.


JesusNEVERexisted wrote:
We have 100 billion brain cells and even if some are damaged it can drastically alter your personality or put you in a coma! Neuroscience disproves an afterlife since consciousness is IMPOSSIBLE once the brain dies. Whenever you do die and experience neural blackout you will realize there is no Jesus and the entire bible is a LIE. Then you will think of me and realize how right I was!


Consciousness is impossible once somebody dies, but once he dies, he will think of you and realize you were right. hmmmm

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 5:33 pm 
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I said as you experience neural blackout you'll realize nothing is happening & there is no Jesus or heaven as described in the bible. I didn't say AFTER you die.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:00 pm 
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All of this conversation is well and good but doesn't address the question I presented to JNE and The Flake, so we'll try again:

Suppose you die and find out you were wrong: JNE wrong about there being no Jesus, god, etc... and The Flake having picked the wrong god. How do you approach this upon your arrival at heaven/hell/wherever?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:18 pm 
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Easy.

I would say every bit of empirical evidence shows NO sign of life after death. No vital signs, no response, no communication AT ALL, etc.

So HOW could any reasonable person say life goes on after death when every bit of evidence says NO?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:20 pm 
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JesusNEVERexisted wrote:
Easy.

I would say every bit of empirical evidence shows NO sign of life after death. No vital signs, no response, no communication AT ALL, etc.

So HOW could any reasonable person say life goes on after death when every bit of evidence says NO?


I'm not saying it does or doesn't, I'm hypothetically asking that if you were wrong, how would you approach whoever it is you meet at the pearly gates? By the way, I agree with you 100% that there is no afterlife and no conceivable way an afterlife could exist. However, it's simply a hypothetical scenario. You can't honestly tell me that you'd meet St. Peter and tell him he doesn't really exist, would you?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:24 pm 
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No, I would say HOW could I know when ALL the evidence shows no afterlife? Christians keep saying they have such a loving and forgiving god so I guess he would forgive me.

Did you hear recently even the Pope said atheists can go to heaven? :aaaa: :lol:


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