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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 7:08 pm 
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JesusNEVERexisted wrote:
Flake, your fanatical dogma is a HUGE turn off and it's why Christianity is a dying religion all over the west! Churches are empty all over Europe and did you know thousands of churches close every year in America due to low attendance?

You come across as a total a-hole by saying "everyone other point of view is wrong but mine!". If you had that attitude in school you'd be hated by everyone with that awful holier than thou attitude.

We have 100 billion brain cells and even if some are damaged it can drastically alter your personality or put you in a coma! Neuroscience disproves an afterlife since consciousness is IMPOSSIBLE once the brain dies. Whenever you do die and experience neural blackout you will realize there is no Jesus and the entire bible is a LIE. Then you will think of me and realize how right I was!


Thank you. Coming from you I'll take that as a complement. I'm not trying to be a butt hole or holier than thou and actually I've typically been the guy that gets along with everyone....so this is a surprise. I'm sorry if I've upset you. That wasn't my intention.

It is not my point of view you disagree with BTW, it is God's word that you disagree with. It is clearly stated in his word that sanctification through Christ is the only way into heaven. I really feel for the people being deceived that if they lead a good life and do good things that they will somehow 'wing it' into heaven. That just isn't so.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 7:25 pm 
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glen a richter wrote:
All of this conversation is well and good but doesn't address the question I presented to JNE and The Flake, so we'll try again:

Suppose you die and find out you were wrong: JNE wrong about there being no Jesus, god, etc... and The Flake having picked the wrong god. How do you approach this upon your arrival at heaven/hell/wherever?



Ok. I'll play along just for fun. So the scenario goes like this....

Flake dies.....A.) nothing happens.......Ok I'm dead and I've lived a great life with purpose and charity.
B.) Some other religion's deity is there...... What up Budda!! Want a mystical cupcake or something....you look hungry.......Hail Odin, may I dine with your warriors this eve. How but a tug on ye ole' Meo meo to see if I'm worthy........better yet.....I'm transformed into a cow or something....I'll make someone a great steak one day. Lol.......here we go.....Ah crap I'm in Hades where everyone goes and no coin for the boatman just like every other suckered that died from my generation.

How's that?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 8:23 pm 
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glen a richter wrote:
JesusNEVERexisted wrote:
Easy.

I would say every bit of empirical evidence shows NO sign of life after death. No vital signs, no response, no communication AT ALL, etc.

So HOW could any reasonable person say life goes on after death when every bit of evidence says NO?


I'm not saying it does or doesn't, I'm hypothetically asking that if you were wrong, how would you approach whoever it is you meet at the pearly gates? By the way, I agree with you 100% that there is no afterlife and no conceivable way an afterlife could exist. However, it's simply a hypothetical scenario. You can't honestly tell me that you'd meet St. Peter and tell him he doesn't really exist, would you?


Actually there is plenty of evidence that a spiritual body exists. There are tons of documented cases where people have had near death experiences and we're witness to events that transpired while their physical body was otherwise incapable of receiving the before mentioned witnessed event. Doctors have done studies on individuals that say they can willingly travel in a spirit body with evidence leading for and against. Just like a everything else we've been discussing....it's open for debate. I don't think you can prove that a spirit body (soul) doesn't exist.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:57 am 
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Loss of oxygen to the brain, referred to as anoxia, can cause what would be considered near death experiences, "seeing the light", etc... it's a temporary event caused by oxygen deprivation. This is a medical fact. I know a fellow who is, for all intents and purposes, a religious man. He attends mass regularly and during a screw up in surgery for prostate cancer suffered three heart attacks in the operating room and was technically dead each time before being brought back. He told me, weeks later, that there was no light, no life flashing before his very eyes, just darkness. Death is darkness. That's it. If some higher being is going to pick and choose who gets to see the light, one would think he or she would select a person who loyally attends mass. Or the whole thing could be just a load of hooey that's been disproven by science over and over again.

Now pass the collection plate, the priests need to replenish their coffers for legal fees.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:39 am 
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The Flake wrote:

Actually there is plenty of evidence that a spiritual body exists. There are tons of documented cases where people have had near death experiences and we're witness to events that transpired while their physical body was otherwise incapable of receiving the before mentioned witnessed event. Doctors have done studies on individuals that say they can willingly travel in a spirit body with evidence leading for and against. Just like a everything else we've been discussing....it's open for debate. I don't think you can prove that a spirit body (soul) doesn't exist.


ABSOLUTE NONSENSE! Glen richter is 100% right here.

Those scammers you speak of were NOT dead! They were simply without oxygen for a few minutes. The mind plays tricks on you when you lose consciousness and then come back!

Find someone who has been dead for several days and then comes back. That is IMPOSSIBLE just like the chances of your mythical Jesus being real!

It's funny you mention NOTHING happening when you die because that is EXACTLY what happens. If I gave you truth serum you would admit that along with the bible being a fairy tale! The REALITY is you have simply been brainwashed and nothing else. You can cure yourself if quit reading bible malarkey!


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:45 am 
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Glen, keep up the good work buddy. You are spreading the TRUTH!

I have had 4 surgeries in my life and for ALL of them I was in total darkness when knocked out. If by some chance something went wrong with the anesthesia then I would've simply been in darkness FOREVER. I've had some members of my family have surgery too and they also only experienced darkness when knocked out. Some of my family members are religious and they only saw darkness as well!


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:48 pm 
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If someone wants to believe in something, if that helps them experience life in a way that's more pleasing to them and gives them a direction, why can't they? Does that really affect YOU that much? Why is it so important for people to have everyone think the way they do about it?

I realize these questions apply to both sides. There are plenty of "excitable" believers who try to get nonbelievers to believe as well. Yes, I have my opinions on this topic. I don't think it's a surprise that I'm a religious person. I don't feel a need to start talking about it randomly though. I talk about it if it comes up and is natural. I don't actively go around trying to convert people and "spread the good word". I'd like others to agree with me on my beliefs, sure, but if they don't, I'm not going to hound them about it. All I can do is plant seeds. It's up to the person to decide what they want to believe, not me. I especially see no real benefit of religious discussions that escalate into an argument. It's interesting to hear ideas, but when it spirals into insults and/or name-calling that accomplishes nothing and is a complete waste of time.

Beliefs are directly related to the very essence of a person and makes them who they are, whether they are right or wrong with them. You can't deny that. I don't get what you are trying to accomplish. You want to make people scared, anxious, uneasy about a core, fundamental part of their existence? Let them think and believe what they want.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 6:46 pm 
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Let's be clear, JNE. I'm not your buddy. We may agree 100% on this particular topic, but I (and others) still find your general approach to the general population here as distasteful and rude. You'll notice that I offered scientific evidence in support of our mutual opinion without referring to anyone as morons, assholes, incompetents or anything else. And that's how you conduct civil debate.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 8:59 pm 
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I was making a 3rd person reference to morons and no one on here in particular.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 12:56 am 
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The Flake wrote:
There are a lot of 'luke warm' people out there who practice the Christian faith and I disagree with you 100%. What we need is a whole multitude of people who are 'on fire' for the Lord and want nothing more than to serve and worship their creator. That would be very dangerous for sin and hatred!! People who are in the world need to wake up and take their creator much more seriously because if they don't, It could be very, very bad for them when the Lord returns.


Far too often, people who are "on fire for the Lord", as you put it (or their God), can be so far out of touch with reality and dangerous....and quite frankly, they scare the living shit out of me just like people dedicated to a radical cult are scary as hell. When I hear people who are "on fire for the Lord" talk about modern issues (political, social, medical, etc.) and whatnot, their religious beliefs effect EVERYTHING they do and seemingly control how they think in EVERY WAY, which is just crazy to me.

If a religion effects someone THAT much where it completely takes over their lives, I think that is the polar opposite of a good thing.

You know what is dangerous for sin and hatred? Goodness and kindness. You don't have to be religious to be a good and kind person.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 1:07 am 
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It takes a being of balls far greater than mine to say that when you die, you're gone. Forever. Poof! Done.

I say this because how could anyone live their life with the idea active in their head that you're a walking timebomb and when it goes ding - that's all folks...period. No Heaven. No Hell. No IHOP. Nothing.

If a God doesn't exist, for the sake of argument, I would argue that humans need the idea of a higher power in their subconscious as a intellectual mechanism to keep them from going insane. To me, the ultimate contradiction to a living, intellectual thing is that it will die and what they do won't matter or have limited importance. If that is true and the only thing we pass on is our genes to the next generation, what does that say about us? Religion, like it or not, is why we have a society in the first place. In fact, Religion created the first society. Perfect? No. We have come far enough to be able to trade off faith and religion for things like intelligence and wisdom and I feel that once we do that, as a society and as a people, we will make the next step up the evolutionary ladder.

But to wrap up my previous point, to say and harp on to others that they're stupid and that there is no God, to those who believe in such things is both rude and disrespectful to another person. Not saying anyone is doing that here, but to me, your beliefs are your own and it only becomes an issue, at least in my eyes, when you try to press those beliefs will without hard fact and wisdom.

Remember, just because we don't see a God, doesn't mean God or a God does not exist. If we're the kind of people looking for him, I don't blame him for hiding lol.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 9:55 am 
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To combine the politics and religion thread: Mitt Romney is not running for President in 2016. Proof of God existing!

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:17 am 
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Oakland Blue, it doesn't take balls. It takes TRUTH.

Have you ever been under general anesthesia? When unconscious you are in darkness, nothing, oblivion! The difference is you still have a pulse and are still breathing so you can regain consciousness. But when you die there is no waking up so you cannot regain consciousness therefore it's darkness FOREVER. I HATE it but it is reality.

If any religious person wants to prove that wrong find someone who has been dead for a day or more and interview them to prove they still have consciousness!


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:47 am 
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cprice12 wrote:
The Flake wrote:
There are a lot of 'luke warm' people out there who practice the Christian faith and I disagree with you 100%. What we need is a whole multitude of people who are 'on fire' for the Lord and want nothing more than to serve and worship their creator. That would be very dangerous for sin and hatred!! People who are in the world need to wake up and take their creator much more seriously because if they don't, It could be very, very bad for them when the Lord returns.


Far too often, people who are "on fire for the Lord", as you put it (or their God), can be so far out of touch with reality and dangerous....and quite frankly, they scare the living shit out of me just like people dedicated to a radical cult are scary as hell. When I hear people who are "on fire for the Lord" talk about modern issues (political, social, medical, etc.) and whatnot, their religious beliefs effect EVERYTHING they do and seemingly control how they think in EVERY WAY, which is just crazy to me.

If a religion effects someone THAT much where it completely takes over their lives, I think that is the polar opposite of a good thing.

You know what is dangerous for sin and hatred? Goodness and kindness. You don't have to be religious to be a good and kind person.


I can understand your fear of religious zealots especially when most are bound to a religion that is man made and therefore is doomed from the beginning. You see Muslims who are killing people in the name of Allah, you read about violent crimes from Christians who say they were doing Gods work, etc., etc. Most of these people I would assume are insane to begin with, are going to strike out in violent ways anyway, and have leeched on to something being a religion, cult, whatever their fixation is. These aren't people who don't really believe (for Christians anyway) in what the word of God sais, but they take from this word what they will to support and corroborate their delinquency. Your going to have crazies (who are out of touch with reality) in life and should always stand on guard against it. I can site example after example of people killing because of their fixation. Charles Manson said he killed because of a Beatles song. Is that the Beatles fault?

But when a 'true' believer of Christianity is zealous, he exhibits the fruits of the spirit through the indwelling of the holy spirit, these are love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance....also he / she heeds Gods commandments which after #1 Thou shalt have no other God before me (Love your God with all your heart, all your mind, and all your strength. #2 Is Lover your neighbor as yourself. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the zealous Christian is exactly what you said...goodness and kindness toward others with peace, meekness, temperance and long suffering (taking abuses without offence or injury). Do you think this is a good thing or the polar opposite of a good thing? You don't have to be a Christian to have these, we are made in God's image and God 'is' Love, God 'is' Goodness. I know lots of great people who do not know the Lord.

You are right, when you are 'on fire for the Lord', from my experience, your 'world' view is more in line with what you deem is right according to the word of God. IMO this is a good thing because I try to practice what I learn from reading the Bible which is all about love, grace and compassion for others.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:49 am 
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dmiles2186 wrote:
To combine the politics and religion thread: Mitt Romney is not running for President in 2016. Proof of God existing!


Agreed, Thank God!!! Now if only Hillary would fail to run. lol

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 2:10 pm 
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JesusNEVERexisted wrote:
Oakland Blue, it doesn't take balls. It takes TRUTH.

Have you ever been under general anesthesia? When unconscious you are in darkness, nothing, oblivion! The difference is you still have a pulse and are still breathing so you can regain consciousness. But when you die there is no waking up so you cannot regain consciousness therefore it's darkness FOREVER. I HATE it but it is reality.

If any religious person wants to prove that wrong find someone who has been dead for a day or more and interview them to prove they still have consciousness!


Do you know what your problem is? You're treating this like it's an objective truth and it isn't one. You can't prove religious people wrong either. I don't care what you say, you can't possibly answer every question about existence. You throw out these random "facts" from questionable sources and are completely close-minded to anything else. Science can't explain everything, religion can't explain everything. However, that's where religion places faith. Faith is a belief in something not seen that you believe/know to be true. If you had complete knowledge, life would be pointless. You start out as a baby and you begin learning. It's the first thing you do. Learning is what drives people.

The one thing that I find incredibly difficult to fathom is the concept of nothingness and/or endlessness. How did it all begin? How did the entire span of space even start? How do you explain that from nothingness "things" just started happening? This is one that religion and science simply cannot completely explain in a 100% tangible way. Science can explain parts, but not the whole thing. So there's just a blank canvas of absolute nothing that extends into infinity called space? Galaxies just start making themselves, planets and solar systems just start coming together, a single tree just starts growing on earth and it knows it needs to grow leaves to absorb sunlight, etc., a mountain forms, fish just appear and are able to live underwater, oceans, dinosaurs, people, it all just happens and is perfectly logical? I mean, does anyone ever just stop and look around and say, "where did all of this come from?" You're telling me that it all just started from absolute nothingness and transformed into this because of science? Everything must have come from a single tiny cell at some point that just magically appeared out of nowhere and turned into everything. What the heck? Please, science, teach me all about that. Religion can't explain it either, but it can with faith in a creator. Call it baloney, call it a farce, call it what you want, but you can't explain it any better.

Also, how does using surgeries prove your point about darkness and nothing? Of course unconsciousness is going to be dark. It's called unconsciousness. If you weren't unconscious during sleep/surgery you wouldn't be sleeping, and, if you were in surgery, you would probably be aware of the surgery as it's happening, which doesn't sound very fun. Religion doesn't see death as dying, at least mine doesn't. It see's it as transcending life. It's not death at all, but an elevated form of life. Death and unconsciousness are completely different.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 2:32 pm 
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A question we may never know the answer to is what started everything. And I'm talking before the big bang... What formed up the matter that made the big bang? How/why did atoms form? Where did energy come from? Who created that? And who created the stuff or set in motion the things that started that?
And in the space that matter occupied at the very beginning, where did that space come from? And why was it there?
How can space just keep going? Doesn't there have to be an end? And then what? If it is infinate, how can that be?

It can make your brain explode.

Maybe I should Google it? :lol:

It is understandable why many choose to have faith in a higher being creating all of that stuff, since it is basically unexplainable.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 2:55 pm 
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cprice12 wrote:
A question we may never know the answer to is what started everything. And I'm talking before the big bang... What formed up the matter that made the big bang? How/why did atoms form? Where did energy come from? Who created that? And who created the stuff or set in motion the things that started that?
And in the space that matter occupied at the very beginning, where did that space come from? And why was it there?
How can space just keep going? Doesn't there have to be an end? And then what? If it is infinate, how can that be?

It can make your brain explode.

Maybe I should Google it? :lol:

It is understandable why many choose to have faith in a higher being creating all of that stuff, since it is basically unexplainable.


I know this doesn't get into all of the questions you posed, but the discovery (right word?) of the Higgs Boson in 2013 answers some of those questions. I don't really understand all of the physics behind it, but the way I understand it is that it explains how the Big Bang Theory could have occurred without the existence of matter.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 3:20 pm 
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Christianity is a giant lie. Giant. Lie.

It's complete misunderstanding - bullshit that has been used a tool for manipulation for nearly 2000 years.

The religion as we know it, the majority of which is taken from the New Testament Cannon, was promulgated by Saul who was called Paul, a Roman outsider to the Jewish mystery cult of which Jesus was a member (the Nazarene branch of the Essenes). Saul's limited comprehension of what he was hearing about was magnified and run with by the Roman Empire when they adopted Christianity as a way to save their dying way of life. It failed to save Rome, but launched a giant scourge on the planet known affectionately in the West as The Dark Ages. It wasn't until the Church started to lose its grasp on the people that the Renaissance happened - and centuries of rapid, rapid progress in a wide range of areas.

Some history:

Nazareth was not included in the list of settlements of the tribes of Zebulon (Joshua 19:10-16) which mentions twelve towns and six villages, and Nazareth is not included among the 45 cities of Galilee that were mentioned by Josephus (37AD-100AD), a widely traveled historian who never missed anything and who voluminously describes the region. The name is also missing from the 63 towns of Galilee mentioned in the Talmud. There was no Nazareth where Christ was born. Nope. Nada. So what is this Jesus (Joshua, really) of Nazareth stuff?

At the time of Christ there were three main groups of Jews, one of which was the Essenes. The Essenes had three main branches, one of which was
Theraputae of Egypt; where the infant Christ and his family fled during Herods rein. The second was the Essenes of Qumran (Dead Sea Scrolls), the strict, celibate monastery of which John the Baptist was a part. And the final one was the Nazarenes of Mount Carmel, the cooperative family village where Jesus lived and studied. So those Romans and outsiders, ones who don't know their Jewish history and geography, interpreted it as the place of origin rather as an essentially political affiliation.

Another example of textual problems that come from the translations and redactions and additions: Christ's divinity wasn't even establish as Church cannon until several hundred years after his death because, well, the story doesn't work if he's just a dude.

Matthew's original wording has been preserved only in an early Syriac codex, in which the genealogy concluded: "And Jacob fathered Joseph, the husband of Mary, and he fathered Jesus, the reputed Messiah." - Matthew 1:16

All surviving (allowed to survive, later copies) Greek manuscripts contain the revised genealogy: "And Jacob fathered Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, the reputed Messiah." - Matthew 1:16

Christianity is a set of stories, told by someones with incomplete information, about somethings they didn't actually understand.

If you want to know more about these topics, I encourage you to look at archeological records and sources, not Christian ones. The dead sea scrolls, by all accounts some of the oldest, least adulterated sources on these topics, are full of stuff your pastor didn't tell you including a bunch of other "Gospels" that may be more indicative of what an Essene of the Nazarene sect would have actually believed.

Oh, and as a final aside on this topic, there's evidence (which I ain't going to go into here) to suggest that the Essenes acknowledged Moses received laws from God, but not the laws the Jews of the day were following - they felt the law in the Torah was made up huey derived to hide the true teachings of God from everyone else. And then there's that Egyptian connection again...Moses, you old rogue, you.

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Back to the line from the thread:

I don't worry about people who believe. I say good for them if it makes them feel better. It doesn't affect my world at all whatever they believe - and when it does affect my life, such as radical Islam atm, then we should exterminate them all. Carpet bombing is the solution here, folks. Carpet bombing.

Flake, good for you with ur Jesus stuff. You be snug in ur Jesus and believe the light and truth and stuff if it helps you cope with your life, gives you strength, and brings you peace. Those are wonderful benefits and it's a habit that enriches your life and those around you. Go with it and don't let anyone stop you.

JNE - stop being rude to people who believe by railing against them and their beliefs when they aren't harming you at all. They leave you alone if you smile and nod and ask them to pray for you. It's much simpler than what you do; you should try it.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 3:40 pm 
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cardsfan04 wrote:
cprice12 wrote:
A question we may never know the answer to is what started everything. And I'm talking before the big bang... What formed up the matter that made the big bang? How/why did atoms form? Where did energy come from? Who created that? And who created the stuff or set in motion the things that started that?
And in the space that matter occupied at the very beginning, where did that space come from? And why was it there?
How can space just keep going? Doesn't there have to be an end? And then what? If it is infinate, how can that be?

It can make your brain explode.

Maybe I should Google it? :lol:

It is understandable why many choose to have faith in a higher being creating all of that stuff, since it is basically unexplainable.


I know this doesn't get into all of the questions you posed, but the discovery (right word?) of the Higgs Boson in 2013 answers some of those questions. I don't really understand all of the physics behind it, but the way I understand it is that it explains how the Big Bang Theory could have occurred without the existence of matter.


I did see that somewhere, where matter can create itself out of nothing...which is fascinating. But that begs the question, where did the space come from in which the creation of matter occured?
And where does space end and what is after that? :aaaa:

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