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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 3:55 pm 
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cprice12 wrote:
cardsfan04 wrote:
cprice12 wrote:
A question we may never know the answer to is what started everything. And I'm talking before the big bang... What formed up the matter that made the big bang? How/why did atoms form? Where did energy come from? Who created that? And who created the stuff or set in motion the things that started that?
And in the space that matter occupied at the very beginning, where did that space come from? And why was it there?
How can space just keep going? Doesn't there have to be an end? And then what? If it is infinate, how can that be?

It can make your brain explode.

Maybe I should Google it? :lol:

It is understandable why many choose to have faith in a higher being creating all of that stuff, since it is basically unexplainable.


I know this doesn't get into all of the questions you posed, but the discovery (right word?) of the Higgs Boson in 2013 answers some of those questions. I don't really understand all of the physics behind it, but the way I understand it is that it explains how the Big Bang Theory could have occurred without the existence of matter.


I did see that somewhere, where matter can create itself out of nothing...which is fascinating. But that begs the question, where did the space come from in which the creation of matter occured?
And where does space end and what is after that? :aaaa:


That's true. No matter how far science gets into proving how the universe originated, there will probably always be that extra question.

As an aside, I hope I find the time to understand this better than I do right now. A common theme in physics is "Law of Conservation of _______." Physics is full of zero sum equations, but this is like dead opposite of that.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 4:50 pm 
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Wings fan, your post on the TRUTH how Christianity is just a LIE is great but you are wrong about the Christ baby. There is not a SINGLE first hand account of Jesus as an adult much less a baby. Check out the documentary "The God who was not there". It is by a former evangelical and even he knows Jesus is a myth. He cites actual EVIDENCE (or lack thereof) and not just useless bible scripture which has no corroboration. I even know some Christians who think much of the bible is myth so DISBELIEF & DOUBT is VERY high among Christians themselves! That's something even clergy know about but don't like to talk about it.

Viper, you are wrong by saying death and unconsciousness are seperate. To prove me wrong find a dead person who is still conscious! IMPOSSIBLE and that is what makes an afterlife impossible!

Here are the latest stats for you:

85% of the members of the National Academy of Sciences don't believe in god/afterlife

60% of doctors don't believe in god/afterlife

Think about it. If people REALLY believed in a god and afterlife we wouldn't even have hospitals or doctors!


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 9:32 pm 
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cprice12 wrote:
cardsfan04 wrote:
cprice12 wrote:
A question we may never know the answer to is what started everything. And I'm talking before the big bang... What formed up the matter that made the big bang? How/why did atoms form? Where did energy come from? Who created that? And who created the stuff or set in motion the things that started that?
And in the space that matter occupied at the very beginning, where did that space come from? And why was it there?
How can space just keep going? Doesn't there have to be an end? And then what? If it is infinate, how can that be?

It can make your brain explode.

Maybe I should Google it? :lol:

It is understandable why many choose to have faith in a higher being creating all of that stuff, since it is basically unexplainable.


I know this doesn't get into all of the questions you posed, but the discovery (right word?) of the Higgs Boson in 2013 answers some of those questions. I don't really understand all of the physics behind it, but the way I understand it is that it explains how the Big Bang Theory could have occurred without the existence of matter.


I did see that somewhere, where matter can create itself out of nothing...which is fascinating. But that begs the question, where did the space come from in which the creation of matter occured?
And where does space end and what is after that? :aaaa:


Yea, seriously...this is the stuff that keeps you up at night if you think too much about it. How does "nothing" know to create something? "Nothing" just gets bored and decides to create everything on a whim? If it's ultimately all for nothing (our lives and everything we do), as some claim, then why even do it? Hmm....

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 9:50 pm 
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JesusNEVERexisted wrote:
Wings fan, your post on the TRUTH how Christianity is just a LIE is great but you are wrong about the Christ baby. There is not a SINGLE first hand account of Jesus as an adult much less a baby. Check out the documentary "The God who was not there". It is by a former evangelical and even he knows Jesus is a myth. He cites actual EVIDENCE (or lack thereof) and not just useless bible scripture which has no corroboration. I even know some Christians who think much of the bible is myth so DISBELIEF & DOUBT is VERY high among Christians themselves! That's something even clergy know about but don't like to talk about it.

Viper, you are wrong by saying death and unconsciousness are seperate. To prove me wrong find a dead person who is still conscious! IMPOSSIBLE and that is what makes an afterlife impossible!

Here are the latest stats for you:

85% of the members of the National Academy of Sciences don't believe in god/afterlife

60% of doctors don't believe in god/afterlife

Think about it. If people REALLY believed in a god and afterlife we wouldn't even have hospitals or doctors!


I'm wrong. :lol: That's the problem with you. You can't listen to other opinions without degrading them. It's possible to disagree while remaining civil about it, you know. Also, a dead person isn't unconscious, they're dead. They are absolutely different states of being, in my opinion. And of course I can't find a dead person who is conscious. Again, they're dead. I don't get how that relates to the point you're trying to make. You aren't really explaining how that makes an afterlife impossible, you're basically just saying there isn't one because.....I fade off because that's kind of what you're doing.

Selectively choosing scientists/doctors to back you up is like ballot stuffing. Of course they're going to favor your point of view. Scientists typically believe in science...go figure... :facepalm: I'll go get a list of religious leaders, ask them the same question, and I bet the numbers are 100% in my favor. I do find it interesting that yours aren't all 100% since you're right and I'm wrong.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:04 pm 
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His numbers also sound kinda made up, especially the 60% of doctors thing. I dunno, maybe not, but they're conspicuously round and undocumented.

I don't have a strong belief one way or another on an afterlife, but I will say that I don't see how a state of consciousness, at least as we define it, has to be a prerequisite. If an afterlife does exist, I don't see it as having to be governed by physical laws here on Earth. The nature of the concept of an afterlife isn't terrestrial, so brain functioning when somebody is in a coma or dead aren't good evidence to me. To me, it's the kind of thing that if you require proof to believe in it, you're never going to believe in it. But, that's not the same as proof against it.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:12 pm 
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JesusNEVERexisted wrote:
Wings fan, your post on the TRUTH how Christianity is just a LIE is great but you are wrong about the Christ baby. There is not a SINGLE first hand account of Jesus as an adult much less a baby. Check out the documentary "The God who was not there". It is by a former evangelical and even he knows Jesus is a myth. He cites actual EVIDENCE (or lack thereof) and not just useless bible scripture which has no corroboration. I even know some Christians who think much of the bible is myth so DISBELIEF & DOUBT is VERY high among Christians themselves! That's something even clergy know about but don't like to talk about it.


This is where you and I will have to agree to disagree. While the Jesus of myth didn't exist, there was a wise/holy man who was crucified under Pilate and is the basis for the stories. To say that there are no historical accounts of Jesus outside the bible is false.

While the name "Jesus" won't be found, the name of a wise or holy man named Yeshua is recorded in several places. The most notable is from Joseph ben Matthias (37 AD - circa 100AD), best known by his Roman name, Flavus Josephus, in his "Antiquities of the Jews." The relevant passage is nearly identical in Greek translations that survived through the Christian tradition and a complete Arabic version of the same title from the 4th century AD. "Antiquities of the Jews" makes reference to Jesus in more than one place and also describes John the Baptist. It also references James as Jesus' brother, something that is missing from the Christian version of the story.

The fact that there was an historical Jesus is also noted in the writings of Cornelius Tacitus, Pliny the Younger, Mara Bar-Scrapion, the Babylonian Talmud, and there are more. None of them are "Christian" sources, and many of them are critical of him, but still serve to verify the existence of a man who fits the bill of Jesus the Christ. I firmly believe that he existed because he did, I just don't think he was all that those who came after said he was.

You are on the losing end if all you are saying is that there was never a Jew named Jesus who was a charismatic leader of a religious group that grew into Christianity after the death of the same by crucifixion at the behest of Pilate during the reign of Tiberius somewhere between 26 and 36 AD, because there's ample evidence to support that. If you want to argue that he didn't perform miracles, wasn't raised from the dead, wasn't born of immaculate conception, etc, then I am with you.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 2:28 am 
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Wings fan, YOU are the one on the losing side. NONE of those non biblical sources saw an earthly Jesus so you have no idea whether they were referring to a person or simply myth and legend of that time. Also it's laughable you mention Josephus & Tacitus because even many Christians have debunked Josephus as an interpolation by a church elder Eusebius due to the lack of evidence for Jesus. Both Josephus and Tacitus' writings were held in Christian hands which seriously damages their credibility. Neither Tacitus or Josephus saw an earthly Jesus anyway and they talk about Hercules too, one of them MORE than they mention Jesus! There is no way anyone can reasonably think Jesus existed after reading the recent Washington Post article below:

Did a Historical Jesus exist? Evidence does NOT add up


Did a man called Jesus of Nazareth walk the earth? Discussions over whether the figure known as the “Historical Jesus” actually existed primarily reflect disagreements among atheists. Believers, who uphold the implausible and more easily-dismissed “Christ of Faith” (the divine Jesus who walked on water), ought not to get involved.

Numerous secular scholars have presented their own versions of the so-called “Historical Jesus” – and most of them are, as biblical scholar J.D. Crossan puts it, “an academic embarrassment.”From Crossan’s view of Jesus as the wise sage, to Robert Eisenman’s Jesus the revolutionary, andBart Ehrman’s apocalyptic prophet, about the only thing New Testament scholars seem to agree on is Jesus’ historical existence. But can even that be questioned?

The first problem we encounter when trying to discover more about the Historical Jesus is the lack of early sources. The earliest sources only reference the clearly fictional Christ of Faith. These early sources, compiled decades after the alleged events, all stem from Christian authors eager to promote Christianity – which gives us reason to question them. The authors of the Gospels fail to name themselves, describe their qualifications, or show any criticism with their foundational sources – which they also fail to identify. Filled with mythical and non-historical information, and heavily edited over time, the Gospels certainly should not convince critics to trust even the more mundane claims made therein.

The methods traditionally used to tease out rare nuggets of truth from the Gospels are dubious. The criterion of embarrassmentsays that if a section would be embarrassing for the author, it is more likely authentic. Unfortunately, given the diverse nature of Christianity and Judaism back then (things have not changed all that much), and the anonymity of the authors, it is impossible to determine what truly would be embarrassing or counter-intuitive, let alone if that might not serve some evangelistic purpose.

The criterion of Aramaic context is similarly unhelpful. Jesus and his closest followers were surely not the only Aramaic-speakers in first-century Judea. The criterion of multiple independent attestation can also hardly be used properly here, given that the sources clearly are not independent.

Paul’s Epistles, written earlier than the Gospels, give us no reason to dogmatically declare Jesus must have existed. Avoiding Jesus’ earthly events and teachings, even when the latter could have bolstered his own claims, Paul only describes his “Heavenly Jesus.” Even when discussing what appear to be the resurrection and the last supper, his only stated sources are his direct revelations from the Lord, and his indirect revelations from the Old Testament. In fact, Paul actually rules out human sources (see Galatians 1:11-12).

Also important are the sources we don’t have. There are no existing eyewitness or contemporary accounts of Jesus. All we have are later descriptions of Jesus’ life events by non-eyewitnesses, most of whom are obviously biased. Little can be gleaned from the few non-Biblical and non-Christian sources, with only Roman scholar Josephusand historian Tacitus having any reasonable claim to be writing about Jesus within 100 years of his life. And even those sparse accounts are shrouded in controversy, with disagreements over what parts have obviously been changed by Christian scribes (the manuscripts were preserved by Christians), the fact that both these authors were born after Jesus died (they would thus have probably received this information from Christians), and the oddity that centuries go by before Christian apologists start referencing them.

Agnosticism over the matter is already seemingly appropriate, and support for this position comes from independent historian Richard Carrier’s recent defense of another theory — namely, that the belief in Jesus started as the belief in a purely celestial being (who was killed by demons in an upper realm), who became historicized over time. To summarize Carrier’s 800-page tome, this theory and the traditional theory – that Jesus was a historical figure who became mythicized over time – both align well with the Gospels, which are later mixtures of obvious myth and what at least sounds historical.

The Pauline Epistles, however, overwhelmingly support the “celestial Jesus” theory, particularly with the passage indicating that demons killed Jesus, and would not have done so if they knew who he was (see: 1 Corinthians 2:6-10). Humans – the murderers according to the Gospels – of course would still have killed Jesus, knowing full well that his death results in their salvation, and the defeat of the evil spirits.

So what do the mainstream (and non-Christian) scholars say about all this? Surprisingly very little – of substance anyway. Only Bart Ehrman and Maurice Casey have thoroughly attempted to prove Jesus’ historical existence in recent times. Their most decisive point? The Gospels can generally be trusted – after we ignore the many, many bits that are untrustworthy – because of the hypothetical (i.e. non-existent) sources behind them. Who produced these hypothetical sources? When? What did they say? Were they reliable? Were they intended to be accurate historical portrayals, enlightening allegories, or entertaining fictions?

Ehrman and Casey can’t tell you – and neither can any New Testament scholar. Given the poor state of the existing sources, and the atrocious methods used by mainstream Biblical historians, the matter will likely never be resolved. In sum, there are clearly good reasons to doubt Jesus’ historical existence – if not to think it outright improbable.









http://www.washingtonpost.com/postevery ... t-hold-up/


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 11:05 am 
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JNE, we could get into a battle of posting opinions of other people on the matter if you want, but for every 1 you post, I could probably post 15-20. The school of thought you are advocating is considered a joke by most historians.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 11:19 am 
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I just googled "did jesus exist" out of curiosity of the makeup of the responses. Google sometimes puts a little box at the top of the page to answer the question itself before giving you the links. They did that this time with this inside:

"The Christ myth theory is the proposition that Jesus of Nazareth never existed, or if he did, he had virtually nothing to do with the founding of Christianity and the accounts in the gospels. This theory has very little support among scholars.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus"

It has very little support because most of the people that write it approach their research with an agenda to prove it instead of letting their research form their conclusion. Awhile back you posted a link to somebody that wrote a book supporting this theory, and he basically went out of his way to only use evidence against it while (most likely intentionally) ignoring evidence of Jesus' existence. That's a common theme with support for this theory.

Jesus was a real person. He is the basis of the stories in The Bible. Many of the stories about Jesus are not 100% historically accurate and some never happened at all, but are included for "teaching" purposes. But, Jesus was real.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 11:20 am 
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As I said, we will have to agree to disagree.

The theory you espouse was cooked up in the 1800's, and isn't generally accepted by mainstream scholars, who nearly universally agree that there was a man of the correct name at the correct time who had some followers, was baptized by John, and was crucified under Pilate. I don't argue for any more than those three high points of the story, wise dude existed, was washed in a river, and was crucified (like 1000s' of others) under Pilate. If you can't accept that, I can't help you. The rest of the story you are welcome to debate, though.

I will point out that at least one copy of "Antiquities of the Jews" being referenced was NOT held by Christians - it was an Arabic version from a 4th century copy far outside the Christian influence. The author was a Jew employed by Romans, idk how that's a Christian. And clearly there was material critical of the Christ Myth or he wouldn't have said that Jesus had a brother (James).

But, more importantly, your requirement of "first hand" accounts is rather silly in that he wasn't nearly as important during his lifetime as he came to be afterward. As such, no one would have really known what would happen to the legacy. In a time where literacy was far lower, writing materials were costly, and copying was time consumingly done by hand there are ample reasons that you would find a paucity of "first hand" accounts that meet your criteria - without invalidating the existence of a man named Jesus. Not to mention the 2nd century gospels found @ Nag Hammadi, an Essene site. Philip, Thomas, and mystical writings of James - who some believe was Jesus' brother. There's plenty in the Talmud to support the presence of an historical Jesus, but if you doubt the Talmud there isn't really much else to talk about.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 4:43 pm 
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You guys make huge mistakes and assumptions here. These historians you speak of are a JOKE because most are Christians themselves and simply assume Jesus lived. There are NO credible references. I even spoke to a doctorate history professor & even he agreed it comes down to believing the bible. Even he said there are no credible sources to verify his existence. Wings fan, the source you cite simply reference the STORY of Jesus which could just be a myth the same way Hercules has been mentioned many times. You guys forget there was a CLEAR agenda to FORCEFULLY spread the story of Jesus yet even the earliest Christians NEVER saw an earthly Jesus! Did you know in ancient times you could be EXECUTED if you didn't believe the Jesus myth as real? There was NO freedom of religion! Even the Pope has apologized for the atrocities Christians committed!

And this entire baby Jesus is total joke! Did you know there was a baby Hercules, baby Krishna, baby Rama, baby Horus, baby Mithras, etc. etc. NO ONE even saw an adult Jesus much less a baby Jesus! Horus was tied to a tree and killed. Similarly Jesus was nailed to a cross only because that was the Roman method of execution. NO actual evidence of it.

See the graphic below to see how Jesus was clearly copied from earlier gods. Even many Christians have admitted this and they use crazy excuses like "Satan did it" because they know they've been BUSTED! This is just the tip of the iceberg. I have a lot more!

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 5:07 pm 
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One of the guys you quoted (Ehrland or something) is agnostic. I don't know any other historians' religions.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 9:09 pm 
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Hey you guys. Watch the short video above when you have time. It provides an excellent explanation of the Jesus myth. It's from the documentary "The God Who Wasn't There".


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 9:22 pm 
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We are just going to have to agree to disagree, JNE.

But like I have said to others, you are free to believe what you will.

Again, the issue here is the level of proof you require. It doesn't matter what evidence is produced, you are going to discredit it out of hand if it doesn't confirm your bias. It's the Foxnews effect in action - if I repeat a lie enough times it's effectively the truth for me and (Frank) you all.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 9:29 pm 
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Wings fan, you didn't watch the video. Just watch it. It's AMAZING! I just saw it again for the first time in YEARS! Paul's account of Jesus that everything the other Gospels are based off of is only a VISION! To Paul(Saul of Tarsus) Jesus was celestial and not human. NONE of the other disciples even saw Jesus.

HOW do you explain Paul's quote "If Jesus HAD been on earth."?

Also even Christians admit the near PERFECT similarities between previous gods & Jesus yet simply say "Satan did it". :lol:

CHECKMATE!


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 10:06 pm 
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JesusNEVERexisted wrote:
Wings fan, you didn't watch the video. Just watch it. It's AMAZING! I just saw it again for the first time in YEARS! Paul's account of Jesus that everything the other Gospels are based off of is only a VISION! To Paul(Saul of Tarsus) Jesus was celestial and not human. NONE of the other disciples even saw Jesus.

HOW do you explain Paul's quote "If Jesus HAD been on earth."?

Also even Christians admit the near PERFECT similarities between previous gods & Jesus yet simply say "Satan did it". :lol:

CHECKMATE!


/facepalm

You haven't understood my posts, clearly.

What does erase someone? ACTIVE SUPPRESSION OF FIRST HAND ACCOUNTS BECAUSE THEY CONTRADICT THE EARLY CHURCH'S IDEAS...a point you clearly concede. The only things we have that survived the test of time are the books that weren't destroyed.

You seem to bee conflating two specific issues here:

1.) there was a guy named Jesus who was crucified

2.) there was a guy named Jesus who was crucified and did miracles and was born of immaculate conception and started a religion and shit.

I am arguing that 1 is true, and that after accepting #1 you and I are on the same page.

I would never argue for #2.

I don't get why it's so important for you to argue #1 other than to be a dick to people.

I have said throughout that the story that survived is bullshit - and that Saul is most responsible for the trash. I clearly get that Saul never met Jesus, nor did I ever say he did. He's talking out his ass all the way through. BUT this does not mean that there wasn't a preacher named Jesus who was actually crucified.

I have said throughout that Jesus was drawing on an older set of ideas, ideas brought out of Egypt by Moses, who was raised by Pharaoh as a son. That the early proponents of Christianity didn't know this does not make Jesus have never existed. That Saul, who was not an essene, did not understand what was being said was symbolic language does not somehow erase the historical figure from existence.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 5:50 am 
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You believe Jesus lived and was crucified just because "the bible says so"? So you also believe Horus was tied to a tree and crucified? After all that was written in a story too!The ONLY eyewitness to Jesus was just a VISION by Saul of Taurus and nothing else! Subsequent Gospels are based on this vision. What about Saul ' s quote "If Jesus HAD been on earth"?


Even SAINT and Christian apologist Justin Martyr said, “When we say that Jesus Christ was produced without sexual union, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended to heaven, we propound nothing new or different from what you believe regarding those whom you call the sons of Jupiter.”

Even a Christian saint and apologist from that era agrees of the similarities between Jesus and previous gods! Game! Set! Match!


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:40 am 
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It would seem that reading for comprehension is not your strong suit.

You are missing my point as well as arguing the wrong premise. But more importantly, it's not a necessary point to win to debunk the Christ myth.

I don't believe it because "the bible", and I never said I did.

You lost this argument before you started, btw, because your burden of proof is a self-fulfilling prophecy - you won't accept any source that is counter your argument and invent ways to disqualify the preponderance of evidence that disproves your position.

You can't find any written, firsthand accounts of my children in extant writings- by your definition that would mean my four kids never existed either, but clearly someone is eating all the food in my house and leaving toys everywhere.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 2:00 pm 
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JesusNEVERexisted wrote:
You guys make huge mistakes and assumptions here. These historians you speak of are a JOKE because most are Christians themselves and simply assume Jesus lived. There are NO credible references. I even spoke to a doctorate history professor & even he agreed it comes down to believing the bible. Even he said there are no credible sources to verify his existence. Wings fan, the source you cite simply reference the STORY of Jesus which could just be a myth the same way Hercules has been mentioned many times. You guys forget there was a CLEAR agenda to FORCEFULLY spread the story of Jesus yet even the earliest Christians NEVER saw an earthly Jesus! Did you know in ancient times you could be EXECUTED if you didn't believe the Jesus myth as real? There was NO freedom of religion! Even the Pope has apologized for the atrocities Christians committed!

And this entire baby Jesus is total joke! Did you know there was a baby Hercules, baby Krishna, baby Rama, baby Horus, baby Mithras, etc. etc. NO ONE even saw an adult Jesus much less a baby Jesus! Horus was tied to a tree and killed. Similarly Jesus was nailed to a cross only because that was the Roman method of execution. NO actual evidence of it.

See the graphic below to see how Jesus was clearly copied from earlier gods. Even many Christians have admitted this and they use crazy excuses like "Satan did it" because they know they've been BUSTED! This is just the tip of the iceberg. I have a lot more!

Image



Nice "mythology meme" Almost all lies to try and throw doubt at Jesus. Of course Horus is the Egyptian 'sun' god....So are several others. Horus wasn't born of a "virgin birth"...She took her husbands dismembered body and used "magic" with the dead body to create a son....There are over 10 different versions of who Horus was said to be and they changed as time passed in Egypt and they needed Horus to "be" something else.

Mithras...really? About all that is known about Mithras is drawn from wall painting in early Rome where he was a transformed "new" God from an eastern world that merged two Gods together. He was primarily worshiped after Christ's birth and death in the 2nd and 3rd century. The old Hindu / Iranian Mithras has very little to do or relate to Christ at all. Mithras was a merged concept of Romans and they added a bunch of stuff which looks like Christianity. The Dec. 25th date of note which stems from the Roman empire celebrating Mithras on Dec. 25th originally is correct. Christianity took hold over the Roman Empire during Constantine and superimposed the date to celebrate Christ. Yes...Christmas originated as a pagan holiday and as any Biblical scholar knows, is not the actual birthdate of Jesus. You can read the Bible and do the math if you like.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 2:49 am 
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Aethism is a belief, just like the rest. In their case, there is no God. And like all the other religions, there is also no proof, only speculation and half-handed research done by scientists on both sides on what very little remains from a time that was before. How one can say with absolute proof that this single puzzle piece creates this large and indepth tapestry that everyone is seeing, borderlines on insanity on both sides of the line. Aethists included.

I have yet to see a -properly- translated copy of the Dead Sea Scrolls for one thing. As in, one that is translated as to how the writer would have defined what they wrote, now what WE translate it to. History this far back is essentially the worst game of telephone ever played and to claim, even on an absolute level that a God/Jesus/Whateverhaveyou exists because of what little is left is beyond arrogant and egotistical in my eyes. Science can only identify, study and research what it finds and it doesn't find much in a land where there is constant war. What's left to find? To see? Records? Where? The one big hurdle that everyone doesn't see is that, in the days we speak of, the victors wrote history and had a very bad habit of destroying whatever they felt didn't fall into it. So all of that information you can't find? That's where it is, in a pile of ash a thousand plus years ago.

Does this mean that God exists? No. Does it mean that he/she/it doesn't? No. What does it all mean?

I don't think it's the thing we should all try to figure out. If a God exists, we're too flawed to even realize how to see them, unless they make themselves known to us. And if they don't, why argue about them NOT existing? Either way it isn't the point.

The point is, how do we relate to each other as human beings. In every religion there are pretty much the same two rules: That you are loved and that you should love one another. That's it.

And while everyone sits there and whines why God exists and why God doesn't and oh what about that Jesus guy that is so popular that the Muslims honor him in the Quaran as a major prophet, does he really exist, etc. We have poverty and famine in a world where we can obliterate it overnight, we have crime and social problems and race problems and education problems and serious divisions between the haves and have nots that it's ridiculous, and all we can do is sit here and argue who is right and wrong?

To me, it doesn't matter enough either way to give it a second thought. The rest, though...

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