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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 8:28 am 
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So how do we deal with the issue of illegal immigration? Putting your personal views of Trump aside for a moment as I want this thread to be about the issue and not Trump, do you agree or disagree with building the wall? For me I agree with it - although the inflammatory rhetoric needs to end. I don't believe it's discriminatory to protect our borders. And I believe it would also be helpful to also put in place a fast track process for illegals not currently in the country to become citizens - I'm all for people coming here legally but against them coming illegally. So if we can build a wall to stop the illegals and have a good process in place to allow people in then that would work.

I know we also need to deal with those already living here illegally. I don't believe deportation is the answer but neither is amnesty. These people should have to pay a fine and have a longer wait to become legal (i.e. 7 years or so) than the ones applying from Mexico to get in here. I believe that is fair.


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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 9:27 am 
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I think it will be more of a monument to divisiveness than a barrier to illegal immigration. And it will cost a boatload of money. I also don't think it's realistically happening even if Trump were to get elected (which won't happen--he'll be lucky to get 200 electoral votes).

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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 5:21 pm 
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Aside from the insane belief that Mexico will pay for it, it's an asinine idea anyway. This is the 21st century and there's a billion ways to enter a country that don't involve scaling a symbolic wall.

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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 6:06 pm 
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I'm trying to imagine a more idiotic idea put forth as a campaign promise. Please note that I am failing in my attempt.

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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2016 6:27 am 
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glen a richter wrote:
Aside from the insane belief that Mexico will pay for it, it's an asinine idea anyway. This is the 21st century and there's a billion ways to enter a country that don't involve scaling a symbolic wall.


We need to do something though. Legal immigration is fine but when thousands streaming across the border each week, most with diseases and in need of care, food, and housing it means that the taxpayers have to pay to take care of them. The flow across the border really ticked up last year when Obama put in his executive order to not deport and the illegals got excited about amnesty. With the surgence of Trump the uptick in flow has increased more and many are trying to get in before he builds the wall. The whole thing is a mess but unless we have a wall I don't see how we can begin to get our hands around this issue.


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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2016 6:51 am 
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Kerfuffle wrote:
glen a richter wrote:
Aside from the insane belief that Mexico will pay for it, it's an asinine idea anyway. This is the 21st century and there's a billion ways to enter a country that don't involve scaling a symbolic wall.


We need to do something though. Legal immigration is fine but when thousands streaming across the border each week, most with diseases and in need of care, food, and housing it means that the taxpayers have to pay to take care of them.


Do you have something to back that up? I highly doubt that "most" illegal immigrants have diseases. Maybe some come over here in hope of healthcare, but I think most come to try to find work. Not saying that coming here to work makes it ok, but if we're going to have a real discussion, let's stick to facts.

Kerfuffle wrote:
The flow across the border really ticked up last year when Obama put in his executive order to not deport and the illegals got excited about amnesty. With the surgence of Trump the uptick in flow has increased more and many are trying to get in before he builds the wall.


Again, can you cite this? From 2009 to 2014 the illegal immigrant population actually decreased from about 12.2 million to 11.3 million. I haven't found 2014-2016 numbers yet, but I heard this being discussed on TV a week or so ago and they said the flow was higher out of the country than in, so I'm assuming the 2009-2014 trend continued.

While I won't say it's a total non-issue, it has always had the feel to me of an issue that people get riled up about in principle, without actually looking into the facts. It is easy to oppose people crossing the border illegally, taking jobs that they shouldn't have (because they are here illegally) and getting supported by taxpayers. It's almost black and white when put that way. But, the magnitude of the issue I think gets overblown because of how black and white the issue is. Sure, it's an issue, but I think the actual impact of it gets exaggerated.

Kerfuffle wrote:
The whole thing is a mess but unless we have a wall I don't see how we can begin to get our hands around this issue.


This is what I don't get about what a wall will do. If somebody in Mexico wants to get onto this side of the wall, what is the wall going to do to stop them? I can maybe see some impact, but not much.

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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2016 6:09 pm 
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Notice that Trump is already backing down on things he said about taxes. This ill conceived wall will be scaled down soon. He knows he can't win a general acting like a buffoon. That only works in republican primaries.

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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2016 6:59 pm 
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glen a richter wrote:
Notice that Drumpf is already backing down on things he said about taxes. This ill conceived wall will be scaled down soon. He knows he can't win a general acting like a buffoon. That only works in republican primaries.


Yeah, I think so too. Part of me still thinks that he doesn't mean everything he says, but is just playing to an audience. That audience won't go to Hillary even when he dials it down. But, I'm not real sure which parts he believes and which he doesn't.

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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2016 5:06 am 
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cardsfan04 wrote:
glen a richter wrote:
Notice that Drumpf is already backing down on things he said about taxes. This ill conceived wall will be scaled down soon. He knows he can't win a general acting like a buffoon. That only works in republican primaries.


Yeah, I think so too. Part of me still thinks that he doesn't mean everything he says, but is just playing to an audience. That audience won't go to Hillary even when he dials it down. But, I'm not real sure which parts he believes and which he doesn't.


Don't forget he's been a Hillary donor in the past, so it's hard to believe he truly believes everything he's said even about her. He sure played into the hands of the GOP voters though. Spew incessant hate, get nominated. Brilliant.

What he didn't calculate was the recovery needed from the sheer number of insults he tossed out there. He may love Mexicans, think women should be paid twice as much as men and party hardy with Muslims at social functions, but at this point he'll never be able to convince 99% of the people who already decided they hate him.

I'll call this now: Trump wins Iowa, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin, but those gains are more than offset when Hillary holds all of Obama's other 2012 states, plus adds North Carolina, Arizona and Georgia. Angry white men are being squeezed out by the minority voters that the GOP needs to court, otherwise they'll never win a presidential election again. They absolutely have to present a clear argument to the black and Hispanic communities about why and how their plans will make their lives better, otherwise it just comes off as hate. People don't vote for hate. How about, and I'm just throwing this one out there because I don't have any actual numbers in front of me to support this as a financially feasible alternative, instead of giving welfare checks and food stamps, make it available as a "take it or leave it" voucher for a trade school that can guarantee job placement after the program is finished? Giving money for having kids = bad. I think most of us would agree on that. Giving an opportunity for an education that will lead to a job and becoming a productive member of society = good.

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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2016 8:44 am 
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cardsfan04 wrote:
This is what I don't get about what a wall will do. If somebody in Mexico wants to get onto this side of the wall, what is the wall going to do to stop them? I can maybe see some impact, but not much.


I don't want to get in a long back and forth about it with 'prove it' scenarios but there's been plenty of news stories on the illegal immigration issue - particularly over the past 2 years which saw a marked increase in response to Obama's Dream Act proposal and word spreading in Mexico that if they are in they will get amnesty (false premise and not exactly what Obama said but his 'path to citizenship' comments were interpreted that way). The borders are getting swamped as thousands pour across and the US has been ill prepared to deal with all of it. Many have diseases (scabies was the common one I read due to lack of health care) so it's a human suffering issue as well. This is a sign of extreme poverty in Mexico with little hope for economic improvement and the United States represents a better life so I understand why the mass migration is taking place but at the same time as a taxpayer don't want to keep funding it and want it done legally.

A wall represents an obstacle - which not everyone will be able to pass. Will it stop illegal immigration? No. But will it slow it down? Yes. So I'm all in favor of a wall and I believe the bill that passes it should include a clause to speed up the legal immigration process which would be a happy medium to show that the US does indeed welcome Mexicans but that they need to come through the front door legally and within the process. And I would definitely amnesty any illegal who has been here and serving in our military - they should be automatically greenlighted as citizens. I think this is a fair solution to all.


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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2016 9:43 am 
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Kerfuffle wrote:
cardsfan04 wrote:
This is what I don't get about what a wall will do. If somebody in Mexico wants to get onto this side of the wall, what is the wall going to do to stop them? I can maybe see some impact, but not much.


I don't want to get in a long back and forth about it with 'prove it' scenarios but there's been plenty of news stories on the illegal immigration issue - particularly over the past 2 years which saw a marked increase in response to Obama's Dream Act proposal and word spreading in Mexico that if they are in they will get amnesty (false premise and not exactly what Obama said but his 'path to citizenship' comments were interpreted that way). The borders are getting swamped as thousands pour across and the US has been ill prepared to deal with all of it. Many have diseases (scabies was the common one I read due to lack of health care) so it's a human suffering issue as well. This is a sign of extreme poverty in Mexico with little hope for economic improvement and the United States represents a better life so I understand why the mass migration is taking place but at the same time as a taxpayer don't want to keep funding it and want it done legally.

A wall represents an obstacle - which not everyone will be able to pass. Will it stop illegal immigration? No. But will it slow it down? Yes. So I'm all in favor of a wall and I believe the bill that passes it should include a clause to speed up the legal immigration process which would be a happy medium to show that the US does indeed welcome Mexicans but that they need to come through the front door legally and within the process. And I would definitely amnesty any illegal who has been here and serving in our military - they should be automatically greenlighted as citizens. I think this is a fair solution to all.


Fair enough. I might have read your earlier post too literally. I can definitely see how healthcare would be a motivation for people to cross the border, just not that most Mexicans have diseases.

I agree that a wall would probably stop "some" illegal immigration (as in a non-zero amount), but I don't think it will stop enough of it to warrant the cost and symbolism of it. The decreasing illegal immigration population (down ~1 million in the last 5-10 years) is also encouraging.

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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2016 7:00 am 
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cardsfan04 wrote:
I think it will be more of a monument to divisiveness than a barrier to illegal immigration. And it will cost a boatload of money. I also don't think it's realistically happening even if Trump were to get elected (which won't happen--he'll be lucky to get 200 electoral votes).


:plusplus: on all of this.

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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2016 11:02 am 
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Kerfuffle wrote:
cardsfan04 wrote:
This is what I don't get about what a wall will do. If somebody in Mexico wants to get onto this side of the wall, what is the wall going to do to stop them? I can maybe see some impact, but not much.


I don't want to get in a long back and forth about it with 'prove it' scenarios but there's been plenty of news stories on the illegal immigration issue - particularly over the past 2 years which saw a marked increase in response to Obama's Dream Act proposal and word spreading in Mexico that if they are in they will get amnesty (false premise and not exactly what Obama said but his 'path to citizenship' comments were interpreted that way). The borders are getting swamped as thousands pour across and the US has been ill prepared to deal with all of it. Many have diseases (scabies was the common one I read due to lack of health care) so it's a human suffering issue as well. This is a sign of extreme poverty in Mexico with little hope for economic improvement and the United States represents a better life so I understand why the mass migration is taking place but at the same time as a taxpayer don't want to keep funding it and want it done legally.

A wall represents an obstacle - which not everyone will be able to pass. Will it stop illegal immigration? No. But will it slow it down? Yes. So I'm all in favor of a wall and I believe the bill that passes it should include a clause to speed up the legal immigration process which would be a happy medium to show that the US does indeed welcome Mexicans but that they need to come through the front door legally and within the process. And I would definitely amnesty any illegal who has been here and serving in our military - they should be automatically greenlighted as citizens. I think this is a fair solution to all.


Agree agree agree!


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 8:55 am 
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"Because the building of walls has worked out so well in the past!"

..said no one ever.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:15 am 
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cprice12 wrote:
"Because the building of walls has worked out so well in the past!"

..said no one ever.


It's like what Reagan said, "Build. Up. This Wall." Message might have been lost in translation somewhere.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 9:06 am 
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glen a richter wrote:
Aside from the insane belief that Mexico will pay for it, it's an asinine idea anyway. This is the 21st century and there's a billion ways to enter a country that don't involve scaling a symbolic wall.


Can someone please remind Glen what Mexico does on their Southern border? It's basically a wall (high barbed wire fence) with armed guard towers all along it. Why isn't what's good for Mexico's borders good for America's border with Mexico?? Hmm?? And what does Mexico do with their railroad entry points - let's illegal immigrants through on the trains as long as they keep going North and don't stop in Mexico. But we can't apply the same rules our neighbors use to our neighbors??

If it's so asinine, why aren't these same people calling it asinine deriding Mexico for being asinine?? After all, they already have a wall on one of their borders.

MEXICO!! TEAR DOWN THAT WALL!!!! :P :woohoo:

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 9:16 am 
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cardsfan04 wrote:
Kerfuffle wrote:
glen a richter wrote:
Aside from the insane belief that Mexico will pay for it, it's an asinine idea anyway. This is the 21st century and there's a billion ways to enter a country that don't involve scaling a symbolic wall.


We need to do something though. Legal immigration is fine but when thousands streaming across the border each week, most with diseases and in need of care, food, and housing it means that the taxpayers have to pay to take care of them.


Do you have something to back that up? I highly doubt that "most" illegal immigrants have diseases. Maybe some come over here in hope of healthcare, but I think most come to try to find work. Not saying that coming here to work makes it ok, but if we're going to have a real discussion, let's stick to facts.

Kerfuffle wrote:
The flow across the border really ticked up last year when Obama put in his executive order to not deport and the illegals got excited about amnesty. With the surgence of Trump the uptick in flow has increased more and many are trying to get in before he builds the wall.


Again, can you cite this? From 2009 to 2014 the illegal immigrant population actually decreased from about 12.2 million to 11.3 million. I haven't found 2014-2016 numbers yet, but I heard this being discussed on TV a week or so ago and they said the flow was higher out of the country than in, so I'm assuming the 2009-2014 trend continued.

While I won't say it's a total non-issue, it has always had the feel to me of an issue that people get riled up about in principle, without actually looking into the facts. It is easy to oppose people crossing the border illegally, taking jobs that they shouldn't have (because they are here illegally) and getting supported by taxpayers. It's almost black and white when put that way. But, the magnitude of the issue I think gets overblown because of how black and white the issue is. Sure, it's an issue, but I think the actual impact of it gets exaggerated.

Kerfuffle wrote:
The whole thing is a mess but unless we have a wall I don't see how we can begin to get our hands around this issue.


This is what I don't get about what a wall will do. If somebody in Mexico wants to get onto this side of the wall, what is the wall going to do to stop them? I can maybe see some impact, but not much.


Then I guess you didn't watch any news in 2014 or 2015. Multiple states were forced by the Federal government to set up camps to help with the massive influx of illegal immigrants. Or were you only watching one channel of news which didn't bother to report the damn problems over 20 states faced with illegal immigrant issues and the "horrible conditions" in these camps. Heck, that was on multiple news channels. It's nice to to use a large 6 year window while not actually comparing what happened from 2013 to 2014. And noting nothing from 2015 when the camps were ridiculously over-populated and understaffed leading to the "horrific" conditions.

Do you believe NPR as a credible source? Or did this just not happen in your world? Those are facts in that NPR report. Look into them yourself before blaming the rest of us for not looking at facts.

Referring to 2014:
Quote:
Since October, more than 52,000 children — most from Central America and many of them unaccompanied by adults — have been taken into custody. That's nearly double last year's total and 10 times the number from 2009.
But those apparently aren't facts in your view.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 9:56 am 
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theohall wrote:
Then I guess you didn't watch any news in 2014 or 2015. Multiple states were forced by the Federal government to set up camps to help with the massive influx of illegal immigrants. Or were you only watching one channel of news which didn't bother to report the damn problems over 20 states faced with illegal immigrant issues and the "horrible conditions" in these camps. Heck, that was on multiple news channels. It's nice to to use a large 6 year window while not actually comparing what happened from 2013 to 2014. And noting nothing from 2015 when the camps were ridiculously over-populated and understaffed leading to the "horrific" conditions.

Do you believe NPR as a credible source? Or did this just not happen in your world? Those are facts in that NPR report. Look into them yourself before blaming the rest of us for not looking at facts.

Referring to 2014:
Quote:
Since October, more than 52,000 children — most from Central America and many of them unaccompanied by adults — have been taken into custody. That's nearly double last year's total and 10 times the number from 2009.
But those apparently aren't facts in your view.


I asked for what he was referring to in 2015-16. From 2009-14 the illegal immigration population declined (without a wall). I haven't been able to find numbers for 2015-16, so I asked where he got it from, especially since what he was saying is the opposite of the previously existing trend.

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I do remember the influx of kids being sent up here from Central America. That was a major problem and needs to be addressed. It's also just one aspect of the problem. Even with those 52000 kids, the illegal immigration population held steady that year. I don't see how a wall solves that problem though.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 9:58 am 
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theohall wrote:
glen a richter wrote:
Aside from the insane belief that Mexico will pay for it, it's an asinine idea anyway. This is the 21st century and there's a billion ways to enter a country that don't involve scaling a symbolic wall.


Can someone please remind Glen what Mexico does on their Southern border? It's basically a wall (high barbed wire fence) with armed guard towers all along it. Why isn't what's good for Mexico's borders good for America's border with Mexico?? Hmm?? And what does Mexico do with their railroad entry points - let's illegal immigrants through on the trains as long as they keep going North and don't stop in Mexico. But we can't apply the same rules our neighbors use to our neighbors??

If it's so asinine, why aren't these same people calling it asinine deriding Mexico for being asinine?? After all, they already have a wall on one of their borders.

MEXICO!! TEAR DOWN THAT WALL!!!! :P :woohoo:


That's a myth. The picture that circulates about Mexico's border fence with Guatemala is actually a picture of a fence between Israel and Egypt.

http://www.snopes.com/mexico-guatemala-border/

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 12:26 pm 
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I often find that roughly 110% of what republicans say can be refuted via snopes.

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