Tracking the Improbable...

[BringBackZezel]

It would have been better for the Cardinals to miss the playoffs. I'm just saying for the long-term benefit of the team, the higher pick was the better option.

Winning is the best thing this franchise can do. It is the best thing any franchise can do. To argue anything else is irrational. Yes, a lower pick means a better chance of a great player, but doesn't this turn-around make you think that our drafting recently has helped? That the team is already moving in the right direction without EJ and other picks? That our youngsters and signings are helping? I will keep rooting for that first round playoff appearance even if its a sweep because it is good for the fans. And none of you can say that you won't be glued to your tv for Game 1 of Round 1 if the Blues pull it off somehow.

I'll take the 15th or 14th overall pick and a fun season over watching our young "talent" and "wasted signings" fail. OS is right on on this one. And if the Blues scouting staff is improved or top shelf, then they can find good talent at lower picks.

I was unaware that the Cardinals was an NHL team.

You're very short-sighted on this one. If the Blues scouting staff is improved or top shelf, then it only amplifies the need for better draft picks. Yes, they could find good talent at lower picks, but the chances of them doing it with top picks is much, much better.

[ledzeppelinfan1]

It would have been better for the Cardinals to miss the playoffs. I'm just saying for the long-term benefit of the team, the higher pick was the better option.

Winning is the best thing this franchise can do. It is the best thing any franchise can do. To argue anything else is irrational. Yes, a lower pick means a better chance of a great player, but doesn't this turn-around make you think that our drafting recently has helped? That the team is already moving in the right direction without EJ and other picks? That our youngsters and signings are helping? I will keep rooting for that first round playoff appearance even if its a sweep because it is good for the fans. And none of you can say that you won't be glued to your tv for Game 1 of Round 1 if the Blues pull it off somehow.

I'll take the 15th or 14th overall pick and a fun season over watching our young "talent" and "wasted signings" fail. OS is right on on this one. And if the Blues scouting staff is improved or top shelf, then they can find good talent at lower picks.

I was unaware that the Cardinals was an NHL team.

You're very short-sighted on this one. If the Blues scouting staff is improved or top shelf, then it only amplifies the need for better draft picks. Yes, they could find good talent at lower picks, but the chances of them doing it with top picks is much, much better.

I think what he is saying jackass is that we HAVE good young talent already. Meaning, this team is slightly ahead of where YOU think they are.

Stempniak, Backes, McClement, E Johnson, TJ Oshie, Wideman, Soderberg, Schwarz and others are the future of this team. The vets we resign or new comers this offseason will be the star power until the youth develops and can take that role for themselves.

[BringBackZezel]

I think what he is saying jackass is that we HAVE good young talent already. Meaning, this team is slightly ahead of where YOU think they are.

Stempniak, Backes, McClement, E Johnson, TJ Oshie, Wideman, Soderberg, Schwarz and others are the future of this team. The vets we resign or new comers this offseason will be the star power until the youth develops and can take that role for themselves.

3 of the players you listed haven't played in the NHL at all, and there's a good chance that another 2 of those won't be in the NHL at season's end.

How does that help in making the case that they SHOULD make the playoffs this season for the long-term good of the franchise? Will it really help 5 players to develop by watching the Blues lose in the first round of the playoffs on their TV?

Perhaps you haven't throught through your case completely. You keep contradicting yourself.

[Tezmyster]

I think what he is saying jackass is that we HAVE good young talent already. Meaning, this team is slightly ahead of where YOU think they are.

oooohhh ... someone's resorting to a naughty word

heh heh.

[mjhopper]

who has the link to that site which gives the probability of a team reaching the playoffs?

[flgtr96]

Just enjoy winning..


This franchise has been dead for three years and now you can watch a game for more than 5 minutes..

[BoxCar]

It would have been better for the Cardinals to miss the playoffs. I'm just saying for the long-term benefit of the team, the higher pick was the better option.

Winning is the best thing this franchise can do. It is the best thing any franchise can do. To argue anything else is irrational. Yes, a lower pick means a better chance of a great player, but doesn't this turn-around make you think that our drafting recently has helped? That the team is already moving in the right direction without EJ and other picks? That our youngsters and signings are helping? I will keep rooting for that first round playoff appearance even if its a sweep because it is good for the fans. And none of you can say that you won't be glued to your tv for Game 1 of Round 1 if the Blues pull it off somehow.

I'll take the 15th or 14th overall pick and a fun season over watching our young "talent" and "wasted signings" fail. OS is right on on this one. And if the Blues scouting staff is improved or top shelf, then they can find good talent at lower picks.

I was unaware that the Cardinals was an NHL team.

You're very short-sighted on this one. If the Blues scouting staff is improved or top shelf, then it only amplifies the need for better draft picks. Yes, they could find good talent at lower picks, but the chances of them doing it with top picks is much, much better.

Its all about trade-offs then. You are trading a semi-successful and at least fun season for the CHANCE that the Blues will make a greater pick near the top 5. I am arguing that with a better record and a playoff appearance after this start shows that the team is improving on its own through previous drafting at lower rounds/picks and that the scouting staff can be trusted to improve the team without surrendering fan support or free agent appeal. The top 5 pick would be nice, but it (like the 14th pick,10th pick or 30th pick) is nothing but a chance. I don't believe that losing (purposely or not) will inevitably improve this hockey club. Winning and doing the best with what you are given is the trademark of successful franchises.

[ledzeppelinfan1]

who has the link to that site which gives the probability of a team reaching the playoffs?

Here is the link...

its like zero-ish, dude.

[ledzeppelinfan1]

It would have been better for the Cardinals to miss the playoffs. I'm just saying for the long-term benefit of the team, the higher pick was the better option.

Winning is the best thing this franchise can do. It is the best thing any franchise can do. To argue anything else is irrational. Yes, a lower pick means a better chance of a great player, but doesn't this turn-around make you think that our drafting recently has helped? That the team is already moving in the right direction without EJ and other picks? That our youngsters and signings are helping? I will keep rooting for that first round playoff appearance even if its a sweep because it is good for the fans. And none of you can say that you won't be glued to your tv for Game 1 of Round 1 if the Blues pull it off somehow.

I'll take the 15th or 14th overall pick and a fun season over watching our young "talent" and "wasted signings" fail. OS is right on on this one. And if the Blues scouting staff is improved or top shelf, then they can find good talent at lower picks.

I was unaware that the Cardinals was an NHL team.

You're very short-sighted on this one. If the Blues scouting staff is improved or top shelf, then it only amplifies the need for better draft picks. Yes, they could find good talent at lower picks, but the chances of them doing it with top picks is much, much better.

Its all about trade-offs then. You are trading a semi-successful and at least fun season for the CHANCE that the Blues will make a greater pick near the top 5. I am arguing that with a better record and a playoff appearance after this start shows that the team is improving on its own through previous drafting at lower rounds/picks and that the scouting staff can be trusted to improve the team without surrendering fan support or free agent appeal. The top 5 pick would be nice, but it (like the 14th pick,10th pick or 30th pick) is nothing but a chance. I don't believe that losing (purposely or not) will inevitably improve this hockey club. Winning and doing the best with what you are given is the trademark of successful franchises.

And that is gospel.

[BringBackZezel]

Its all about trade-offs then. You are trading a semi-successful and at least fun season for the CHANCE that the Blues will make a greater pick near the top 5. I am arguing that with a better record and a playoff appearance after this start shows that the team is improving on its own through previous drafting at lower rounds/picks and that the scouting staff can be trusted to improve the team without surrendering fan support or free agent appeal. The top 5 pick would be nice, but it (like the 14th pick,10th pick or 30th pick) is nothing but a chance. I don't believe that losing (purposely or not) will inevitably improve this hockey club. Winning and doing the best with what you are given is the trademark of successful franchises.

It's definitely a trade-off.

As hard as it is for some here to believe you and I have very similar views to this. I'm not cheering for this team to lose, I'm simply saying that losing this season isn't the worst thing that can happen.

IMO, there are three options:

1. trade away youth @ the deadline to make a run @ the playoffs. I don't think anyone is behind this idea. It's something the franchise did numerous times and it's the reason the team is poor now.

2. hold onto what you have and try to make the playoffs. This is something they did in the early Pleau years, but ultimately failed because he allowed players like Hull, Turgeon, Young, etc to walk without getting anything. Could it work? It's possible, but we still have the same GM who failed at it last time (yes...he might be a lame duck, but it's still the sam guy)

3. Trade away players who's aren't going to help this team next season for players/assets who are going to help next season and/or beyond. This has been done once in the history of the franchise....last season. Ask yourself this: Does this franchise have more talent than last year? Is it at all due to the results of last season?


Ultimatley I'm not advocating teaching players to lose, or trying to lose. I'm simply saying that if this team is going to win a cup, it's not going to be with Tkachuk and Guerin. It's going to be with the kids they have now and they one's they aquire over the next few seasons. Let them play now. Let them try to win and if they don't, let them learn why they lose.

There are two great examples I'd like to point to: Steve Yzerman, Joe Sakic. Both were 1st round picks and on awful teams when they came into the league...and both learned how to lose before they learned how to win. Both of them are among the all-time best leaders in the NHL...and both have multiple rings.


My case is that losing isn't all bad...especially when the best case scenarion for this season really isn't that good.

[frivolousz21]

My case is that losing isn't all bad...especially when the best case scenarion for this season really isn't that good.

right...losing isnt bad...Tell that to Mr. Checketts when they trade a few guys..and 5,000 people show up at ScottTrade.

then they Cardinals start...and any momentum is lost.


then ask Mr. Checketts how he feels if some of those picks are busts...when we could of held on to guys that make this team respectable..while we build youth and sign Star freeagents when we can.

if they trade KT, Guerin, and Ruchinsky...we might as well say everything they built so far this last month is gone
it ussually takes young players a few yrs to be good..atleast..unless they are superstars.

[deadphish]

I like robots.

[BoxCar]

Its all about trade-offs then. You are trading a semi-successful and at least fun season for the CHANCE that the Blues will make a greater pick near the top 5. I am arguing that with a better record and a playoff appearance after this start shows that the team is improving on its own through previous drafting at lower rounds/picks and that the scouting staff can be trusted to improve the team without surrendering fan support or free agent appeal. The top 5 pick would be nice, but it (like the 14th pick,10th pick or 30th pick) is nothing but a chance. I don't believe that losing (purposely or not) will inevitably improve this hockey club. Winning and doing the best with what you are given is the trademark of successful franchises.

It's definitely a trade-off.

As hard as it is for some here to believe you and I have very similar views to this. I'm not cheering for this team to lose, I'm simply saying that losing this season isn't the worst thing that can happen.

IMO, there are three options:

1. trade away youth @ the deadline to make a run @ the playoffs. I don't think anyone is behind this idea. It's something the franchise did numerous times and it's the reason the team is poor now.

2. hold onto what you have and try to make the playoffs. This is something they did in the early Pleau years, but ultimately failed because he allowed players like Hull, Turgeon, Young, etc to walk without getting anything. Could it work? It's possible, but we still have the same GM who failed at it last time (yes...he might be a lame duck, but it's still the sam guy)

3. Trade away players who's aren't going to help this team next season for players/assets who are going to help next season and/or beyond. This has been done once in the history of the franchise....last season. Ask yourself this: Does this franchise have more talent than last year? Is it at all due to the results of last season?


Ultimatley I'm not advocating teaching players to lose, or trying to lose. I'm simply saying that if this team is going to win a cup, it's not going to be with Tkachuk and Guerin. It's going to be with the kids they have now and they one's they aquire over the next few seasons. Let them play now. Let them try to win and if they don't, let them learn why they lose.

There are two great examples I'd like to point to: Steve Yzerman, Joe Sakic. Both were 1st round picks and on awful teams when they came into the league...and both learned how to lose before they learned how to win. Both of them are among the all-time best leaders in the NHL...and both have multiple rings.


My case is that losing isn't all bad...especially when the best case scenarion for this season really isn't that good.

I'm not against trading our vets for young players, but I do think that they need to be young players that can contribute this year or next. There is no reason why the Blues can't replace Tkachuk/Weight/Guerin with a very talented young NHLer. Plus, trading some vets doesn't rule out a playoff run. Losing this year is not the worst thing that could happen, but I don't think it is the best thing (not including winning the cup) that could happen.

I think they should do their best to win, but remain sellers at the deadline regardless of position. This only gives Davidson and Pleau the valuable bargaining chip of "We don't need to trade these players, we have a shot at the playoffs so your offer needs to shine."

Gaining players like Prucha and other talented young players for Guerin/Tkachuk/Weight is the best option. It allows a chance to continue winning this season and builds for the future. We can gain quality, young players for these vets without losing any prospects or completely destroying a playoff run.

You are absolutely right that losing isn't the worst.

[Carl Racki]

My case is that losing isn't all bad...especially when the best case scenarion for this season really isn't that good.

The decision the Blues will have to make is this: is this year's draft class worth stockpiling picks for or not? That will make the Guerin/Walt/Brewer decisions easy...then, the playoffs will have to come into the decision-making process as well...but the Blues are in no position to add payroll, so they are going to have to be within 4-6 points of the playoffs at the deadline to justify NOT trading those guys, imo....I am sure that JD wishes he had replaced Kitchen in August...that would have made these decisions much easier.



right...losing isnt bad...Tell that to Mr. Checketts when they trade a few guys..and 5,000 people show up at ScottTrade.

then they Cardinals start...and any momentum is lost.


then ask Mr. Checketts how he feels if some of those picks are busts...when we could of held on to guys that make this team respectable..while we build youth and sign Star freeagents when we can.

if they trade KT, Guerin, and Ruchinsky...we might as well say everything they built so far this last month is gone
it ussually takes young players a few yrs to be good..atleast..unless they are superstars.

[Hollywood]

Its all about trade-offs then. You are trading a semi-successful and at least fun season for the CHANCE that the Blues will make a greater pick near the top 5. I am arguing that with a better record and a playoff appearance after this start shows that the team is improving on its own through previous drafting at lower rounds/picks and that the scouting staff can be trusted to improve the team without surrendering fan support or free agent appeal. The top 5 pick would be nice, but it (like the 14th pick,10th pick or 30th pick) is nothing but a chance. I don't believe that losing (purposely or not) will inevitably improve this hockey club. Winning and doing the best with what you are given is the trademark of successful franchises.

It's definitely a trade-off.

As hard as it is for some here to believe you and I have very similar views to this. I'm not cheering for this team to lose, I'm simply saying that losing this season isn't the worst thing that can happen.

IMO, there are three options:

1. trade away youth @ the deadline to make a run @ the playoffs. I don't think anyone is behind this idea. It's something the franchise did numerous times and it's the reason the team is poor now.

2. hold onto what you have and try to make the playoffs. This is something they did in the early Pleau years, but ultimately failed because he allowed players like Hull, Turgeon, Young, etc to walk without getting anything. Could it work? It's possible, but we still have the same GM who failed at it last time (yes...he might be a lame duck, but it's still the sam guy)

3. Trade away players who's aren't going to help this team next season for players/assets who are going to help next season and/or beyond. This has been done once in the history of the franchise....last season. Ask yourself this: Does this franchise have more talent than last year? Is it at all due to the results of last season?


Ultimatley I'm not advocating teaching players to lose, or trying to lose. I'm simply saying that if this team is going to win a cup, it's not going to be with Tkachuk and Guerin. It's going to be with the kids they have now and they one's they aquire over the next few seasons. Let them play now. Let them try to win and if they don't, let them learn why they lose.

There are two great examples I'd like to point to: Steve Yzerman, Joe Sakic. Both were 1st round picks and on awful teams when they came into the league...and both learned how to lose before they learned how to win. Both of them are among the all-time best leaders in the NHL...and both have multiple rings.


My case is that losing isn't all bad...especially when the best case scenarion for this season really isn't that good.

I'm not against trading our vets for young players, but I do think that they need to be young players that can contribute this year or next. There is no reason why the Blues can't replace Tkachuk/Weight/Guerin with a very talented young NHLer. Plus, trading some vets doesn't rule out a playoff run. Losing this year is not the worst thing that could happen, but I don't think it is the best thing (not including winning the cup) that could happen.

I think they should do their best to win, but remain sellers at the deadline regardless of position. This only gives Davidson and Pleau the valuable bargaining chip of "We don't need to trade these players, we have a shot at the playoffs so your offer needs to shine."

Gaining players like Prucha and other talented young players for Guerin/Tkachuk/Weight is the best option. It allows a chance to continue winning this season and builds for the future. We can gain quality, young players for these vets without losing any prospects or completely destroying a playoff run.

You are absolutely right that losing isn't the worst.

BBZ, I think we might have reached someone. That makes it all worth it. I fell all warm and fuzzy inside.

[ledzeppelinfan1]

Its all about trade-offs then. You are trading a semi-successful and at least fun season for the CHANCE that the Blues will make a greater pick near the top 5. I am arguing that with a better record and a playoff appearance after this start shows that the team is improving on its own through previous drafting at lower rounds/picks and that the scouting staff can be trusted to improve the team without surrendering fan support or free agent appeal. The top 5 pick would be nice, but it (like the 14th pick,10th pick or 30th pick) is nothing but a chance. I don't believe that losing (purposely or not) will inevitably improve this hockey club. Winning and doing the best with what you are given is the trademark of successful franchises.

It's definitely a trade-off.

As hard as it is for some here to believe you and I have very similar views to this. I'm not cheering for this team to lose, I'm simply saying that losing this season isn't the worst thing that can happen.

IMO, there are three options:

1. trade away youth @ the deadline to make a run @ the playoffs. I don't think anyone is behind this idea. It's something the franchise did numerous times and it's the reason the team is poor now.

2. hold onto what you have and try to make the playoffs. This is something they did in the early Pleau years, but ultimately failed because he allowed players like Hull, Turgeon, Young, etc to walk without getting anything. Could it work? It's possible, but we still have the same GM who failed at it last time (yes...he might be a lame duck, but it's still the sam guy)

3. Trade away players who's aren't going to help this team next season for players/assets who are going to help next season and/or beyond. This has been done once in the history of the franchise....last season. Ask yourself this: Does this franchise have more talent than last year? Is it at all due to the results of last season?


Ultimatley I'm not advocating teaching players to lose, or trying to lose. I'm simply saying that if this team is going to win a cup, it's not going to be with Tkachuk and Guerin. It's going to be with the kids they have now and they one's they aquire over the next few seasons. Let them play now. Let them try to win and if they don't, let them learn why they lose.

There are two great examples I'd like to point to: Steve Yzerman, Joe Sakic. Both were 1st round picks and on awful teams when they came into the league...and both learned how to lose before they learned how to win. Both of them are among the all-time best leaders in the NHL...and both have multiple rings.


My case is that losing isn't all bad...especially when the best case scenarion for this season really isn't that good.

I'm not against trading our vets for young players, but I do think that they need to be young players that can contribute this year or next. There is no reason why the Blues can't replace Tkachuk/Weight/Guerin with a very talented young NHLer. Plus, trading some vets doesn't rule out a playoff run. Losing this year is not the worst thing that could happen, but I don't think it is the best thing (not including winning the cup) that could happen.

I think they should do their best to win, but remain sellers at the deadline regardless of position. This only gives Davidson and Pleau the valuable bargaining chip of "We don't need to trade these players, we have a shot at the playoffs so your offer needs to shine."

Gaining players like Prucha and other talented young players for Guerin/Tkachuk/Weight is the best option. It allows a chance to continue winning this season and builds for the future. We can gain quality, young players for these vets without losing any prospects or completely destroying a playoff run.

You are absolutely right that losing isn't the worst.

BBZ, I think we might have reached someone. That makes it all worth it. I fell all warm and fuzzy inside.

Like you influenced him in some manner...

We all think for ourselves, just like I think you are an idiot.

[OS]

You are absolutely right that losing isn't the worst.

... ain't the best either...

[Topshelf331]

I just have one question that didnt need its own thread. What happened to hadley? Did he lose a bet or something? I havent seen or heard from him for a while.

[OS]

I just have one question that didnt need its own thread. What happened to hadley? Did he lose a bet or something? I havent seen or heard from him for a while.

He was on KTRS a few nights ago.

[BoxCar]

Losing this year is not the worst thing that could happen, but I don't think it is the best thing (not including winning the cup) that could happen.