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Postby Hollywood » Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:54 pm

OS wrote:
Hollywood wrote:What message does it send? We know we are not going to win this year so we are going to try and do everything we can to win in the future?


You and I understand that.... average Joe Blow gets pissed when their favorite players get traded.


Understand that......Darkest Day, right?
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Postby BringBackZezel » Fri Jan 12, 2007 3:50 pm

northwest dave wrote:I think that winning games and learning how to beat good team will help this team in the future regardless if they make the playoffs. Guys like Stempy, McClement, Jackman, etc. are learning how to "Murray Hockey" and that to me means next year and the years after will be better than any top 5 pick could bring.


1. McClement, Jackman, "Stempy", and "Bass" will all still learn "Murray Hockey" completely independent of making the playoffs and trading away Tkachuk, Guerin, Brewer, Cajanek, Drake, etc....

2. "...and that to me means next year and the years after will be better than any top 5 pick could bring" is one of the most short-sighted posts ever posted here.

A top 5 pick can bring you Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Modano, Pronger, Lemieux or Jagr. The list goes on an on....and what's amazing is that aquiring any of those players are worth MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more than the difference between Stempy, McClement, Jackman 5 weeks ago and now.

Let's be realistic here.
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Postby Blue Beagle » Fri Jan 12, 2007 3:53 pm

Hollywood wrote:
Blue Beagle wrote:Wow, I've never seen anyone argue against the saying that winning games puts butts in the seats. :lol:


Who argued that?


A firesale after the way this team has turned it around sends the wrong message to the fans, players, prospects, potential UFAs, coaches, casual fans, potential season ticket holders, fans and more fans


What message does it send? We know we are not going to win this year so we are going to try and do everything we can to win in the future?

Sure, but who wants to pay to go to the games and see the remnants of a team that just mailed it in? That's what it comes down to plain and simple.

With the start of this season and last, you're going to have to show the fans that there's a reason to buy those season tickets next year. How are you going to do that by showing more of the same from the start of the season? JD has to show that he has some credibilty and truly is beginning to turn this team around.

How are you going to do that by sacraficing the now for the future (albeit a future in another city)?
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Postby Blue Beagle » Fri Jan 12, 2007 3:56 pm

BringBackZezel wrote:
northwest dave wrote:I think that winning games and learning how to beat good team will help this team in the future regardless if they make the playoffs. Guys like Stempy, McClement, Jackman, etc. are learning how to "Murray Hockey" and that to me means next year and the years after will be better than any top 5 pick could bring.


1. McClement, Jackman, "Stempy", and "Bass" will all still learn "Murray Hockey" completely independent of making the playoffs and trading away Tkachuk, Guerin, Brewer, Cajanek, Drake, etc....

2. "...and that to me means next year and the years after will be better than any top 5 pick could bring" is one of the most short-sighted posts ever posted here.

A top 5 pick can bring you Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Modano, Pronger, Lemieux or Jagr. The list goes on an on....and what's amazing is that aquiring any of those players are worth MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more than the difference between Stempy, McClement, Jackman 5 weeks ago and now.

Let's be realistic here.


Realisticly, the Penguins are going to have a very hard time holding on to what they have now. The truth is you have to have the Stempniaks, McClements, Salvadors, etc.
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Postby BringBackZezel » Fri Jan 12, 2007 3:56 pm

Blue Beagle wrote:
Hollywood wrote:
Blue Beagle wrote:Wow, I've never seen anyone argue against the saying that winning games puts butts in the seats. :lol:


Who argued that?


A firesale after the way this team has turned it around sends the wrong message to the fans, players, prospects, potential UFAs, coaches, casual fans, potential season ticket holders, fans and more fans


What message does it send? We know we are not going to win this year so we are going to try and do everything we can to win in the future?

Sure, but who wants to pay to go to the games and see the remnants of a team that just mailed it in? That's what it comes down to plain and simple.

With the start of this season and last, you're going to have to show the fans that there's a reason to buy those season tickets next year. How are you going to do that by showing more of the same from the start of the season? JD has to show that he has some credibilty and truly is beginning to turn this team around.

How are you going to do that by sacraficing the now for the future (albeit a future in another city)?


How many tickets do you expect to sell by telling the fans that the team is hoping to return to the mediocrity that it's been stuck in for decades?

Do you really expect to gain credibility by letting assets walk and still not making the playoffs? Then they look just as inept as the Laurie/Sauer/Pleau Blues of the past decade.
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Postby Blue Beagle » Fri Jan 12, 2007 3:58 pm

BringBackZezel wrote:
Blue Beagle wrote:
Hollywood wrote:
Blue Beagle wrote:Wow, I've never seen anyone argue against the saying that winning games puts butts in the seats. :lol:


Who argued that?


A firesale after the way this team has turned it around sends the wrong message to the fans, players, prospects, potential UFAs, coaches, casual fans, potential season ticket holders, fans and more fans


What message does it send? We know we are not going to win this year so we are going to try and do everything we can to win in the future?

Sure, but who wants to pay to go to the games and see the remnants of a team that just mailed it in? That's what it comes down to plain and simple.

With the start of this season and last, you're going to have to show the fans that there's a reason to buy those season tickets next year. How are you going to do that by showing more of the same from the start of the season? JD has to show that he has some credibilty and truly is beginning to turn this team around.

How are you going to do that by sacraficing the now for the future (albeit a future in another city)?


How many tickets do you expect to sell by telling the fans that the team is hoping to return to the mediocrity that it's been stuck in for decades?

Do you really expect to gain credibility by letting assets walk and still not making the playoffs? Then they look just as inept as the Laurie/Sauer/Pleau Blues of the past decade.

What you're saying is logical. But attendance figures really don't like, now do they?
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Postby BringBackZezel » Fri Jan 12, 2007 3:59 pm

Blue Beagle wrote:
BringBackZezel wrote:
northwest dave wrote:I think that winning games and learning how to beat good team will help this team in the future regardless if they make the playoffs. Guys like Stempy, McClement, Jackman, etc. are learning how to "Murray Hockey" and that to me means next year and the years after will be better than any top 5 pick could bring.


1. McClement, Jackman, "Stempy", and "Bass" will all still learn "Murray Hockey" completely independent of making the playoffs and trading away Tkachuk, Guerin, Brewer, Cajanek, Drake, etc....

2. "...and that to me means next year and the years after will be better than any top 5 pick could bring" is one of the most short-sighted posts ever posted here.

A top 5 pick can bring you Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Modano, Pronger, Lemieux or Jagr. The list goes on an on....and what's amazing is that aquiring any of those players are worth MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more than the difference between Stempy, McClement, Jackman 5 weeks ago and now.

Let's be realistic here.


Realisticly, the Penguins are going to have a very hard time holding on to what they have now. The truth is you have to have the Stempniaks, McClements, Salvadors, etc.


Because the Stempniaks, McClements, and Salvadors are known for their leadership and winning ways, right?

Ultimately, Stempniak and McClement are valuable because of their relatively low salary for their production. That production can be replaced on the UFA market.

Pittsburgh can't replace Crosby's production with any single player. He's the best player in the league at 19 year old and won't be a UFA for another 7 years.

You get those type of players by drafting high and drafting often.

You don't get those players by worring about the proper way to coach mid-level replaceable role players.
[Aode] 10:34 pm: well, if I find cornhole anywhere, I'll try it and let you know
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Postby OS » Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:00 pm

I'm still waiting for you to tell us how many years the Blues have to suck before it's okay to try and win a Cup...
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Postby Blue Beagle » Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:01 pm

BringBackZezel wrote:
Blue Beagle wrote:
BringBackZezel wrote:
northwest dave wrote:I think that winning games and learning how to beat good team will help this team in the future regardless if they make the playoffs. Guys like Stempy, McClement, Jackman, etc. are learning how to "Murray Hockey" and that to me means next year and the years after will be better than any top 5 pick could bring.


1. McClement, Jackman, "Stempy", and "Bass" will all still learn "Murray Hockey" completely independent of making the playoffs and trading away Tkachuk, Guerin, Brewer, Cajanek, Drake, etc....

2. "...and that to me means next year and the years after will be better than any top 5 pick could bring" is one of the most short-sighted posts ever posted here.

A top 5 pick can bring you Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Modano, Pronger, Lemieux or Jagr. The list goes on an on....and what's amazing is that aquiring any of those players are worth MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more than the difference between Stempy, McClement, Jackman 5 weeks ago and now.

Let's be realistic here.


Realisticly, the Penguins are going to have a very hard time holding on to what they have now. The truth is you have to have the Stempniaks, McClements, Salvadors, etc.


Because the Stempniaks, McClements, and Salvadors are known for their leadership and winning ways, right?

Ultimately, Stempniak and McClement are valuable because of their relatively low salary for their production. That production can be replaced on the UFA market.

Pittsburgh can't replace Crosby's production with any single player. He's the best player in the league at 19 year old and won't be a UFA for another 7 years.

You get those type of players by drafting high and drafting often.

You don't get those players by worring about the proper way to coach mid-level replaceable role players.

I'm talking about dollar value, regardless of role. There's a salary cap to work within these days.
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Postby execwrite » Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:02 pm

If there was no talent in the system I think you'd have a stronger argument for tanking this season and getting picks. The Blues have young players on the way, although of course they always need more.

Since the trade deadline is so early, it seems inevitable that they will have to hang on to their vets and risk them walking for nothing next year.

That's life - the idea is to win. As someone else pointed out, if they want to spend money on free agents next year, it doesn't have to be their own free agents. There will be others available.
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Postby BringBackZezel » Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:07 pm

Blue Beagle wrote:What you're saying is logical. But attendance figures really don't like, now do they?


I'm guessing you meant lie....

Here is the average att. by month for the blues:

October: 11288
November: 9705
December: 12941
January: 11459

Attendance figures don't lie:

Despite the Blues recent stretch of being the best team in the league over a 10 game span, attendance is not up, and is in fact down since December.
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Postby BringBackZezel » Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:08 pm

OS wrote:I'm still waiting for you to tell us how many years the Blues have to suck before it's okay to try and win a Cup...


Obsession.
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Postby BringBackZezel » Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:09 pm

Blue Beagle wrote:
BringBackZezel wrote:
Blue Beagle wrote:
BringBackZezel wrote:
northwest dave wrote:I think that winning games and learning how to beat good team will help this team in the future regardless if they make the playoffs. Guys like Stempy, McClement, Jackman, etc. are learning how to "Murray Hockey" and that to me means next year and the years after will be better than any top 5 pick could bring.


1. McClement, Jackman, "Stempy", and "Bass" will all still learn "Murray Hockey" completely independent of making the playoffs and trading away Tkachuk, Guerin, Brewer, Cajanek, Drake, etc....

2. "...and that to me means next year and the years after will be better than any top 5 pick could bring" is one of the most short-sighted posts ever posted here.

A top 5 pick can bring you Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Modano, Pronger, Lemieux or Jagr. The list goes on an on....and what's amazing is that aquiring any of those players are worth MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more than the difference between Stempy, McClement, Jackman 5 weeks ago and now.

Let's be realistic here.


Realisticly, the Penguins are going to have a very hard time holding on to what they have now. The truth is you have to have the Stempniaks, McClements, Salvadors, etc.


Because the Stempniaks, McClements, and Salvadors are known for their leadership and winning ways, right?

Ultimately, Stempniak and McClement are valuable because of their relatively low salary for their production. That production can be replaced on the UFA market.

Pittsburgh can't replace Crosby's production with any single player. He's the best player in the league at 19 year old and won't be a UFA for another 7 years.

You get those type of players by drafting high and drafting often.

You don't get those players by worring about the proper way to coach mid-level replaceable role players.

I'm talking about dollar value, regardless of role. There's a salary cap to work within these days.


If that's the case, you have even less of a point. The younger they get (through the draft and trades) the better off they are in terms of the salary cap.
[Aode] 10:34 pm: well, if I find cornhole anywhere, I'll try it and let you know
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Postby northwest dave » Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:11 pm

BringBackZezel wrote:1. McClement, Jackman, "Stempy", and "Bass" will all still learn "Murray Hockey" completely independent of making the playoffs and trading away Tkachuk, Guerin, Brewer, Cajanek, Drake, etc....


Agreed. I think they should trade away most of those guys unless a deal can be worked out prior to the deadline. The Blues are not in a position to risk losing another UFA.

BringBackZezel wrote:2. "...and that to me means next year and the years after will be better than any top 5 pick could bring" is one of the most short-sighted posts ever posted here.

Cool...I made the EVAAAR list.
I'm just talking about winning. Playing good hockey regardless of where they end up in the draft sequence is important and realistic. Sure, it would be great to pick in the top 5 for the next 5 years like the Pens. But I'd rather start creating a winning atmosphere than hope for another Malkin or Crosby.


BringBackZezel wrote:A top 5 pick can bring you Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Modano, Pronger, Lemieux or Jagr. The list goes on an on....and what's amazing is that aquiring any of those players are worth MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more than the difference between Stempy, McClement, Jackman 5 weeks ago and now.

Let's be realistic here.


I am. You can can't expect this team to purposely lose. Winning is a state of mind and it should start now.

Ottawa's best players drafted while they were the worst team in the league did not happen with their top 5 picks. Deroit consistently drafts well. Drafting in the top 5 is not the only way to build a winning team. Playing good hockey with good players is. Installing that winning atmospere is what needs to happen...not hoping for the next Joe Murphy or Daigle to appear.

To disagree, one doesn't have to be disagreeable.
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Postby BringBackZezel » Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:11 pm

execwrite wrote:If there was no talent in the system I think you'd have a stronger argument for tanking this season and getting picks. The Blues have young players on the way, although of course they always need more.

Since the trade deadline is so early, it seems inevitable that they will have to hang on to their vets and risk them walking for nothing next year.

That's life - the idea is to win. As someone else pointed out, if they want to spend money on free agents next year, it doesn't have to be their own free agents. There will be others available.


Actually, it's quite the opposite. It's inevitable that they will have to trade away their vets and make the franchise better.

They either have to do that, or continue to be a laughing stock of a franchise.
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Postby Blue Beagle » Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:13 pm

BringBackZezel wrote:
Blue Beagle wrote:What you're saying is logical. But attendance figures really don't like, now do they?


I'm guessing you meant lie....

Here is the average att. by month for the blues:

October: 11288
November: 9705
December: 12941
January: 11459

Attendance figures don't lie:

Despite the Blues recent stretch of being the best team in the league over a 10 game span, attendance is not up, and is in fact down since December.

So about 1200 a game is your target? Might want to raise ticket prices to make that work. Keep trying.
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Postby BringBackZezel » Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:15 pm

northwest dave wrote:I am. You can can't expect this team to purposely lose. Winning is a state of mind and it should start now.

Ottawa's best players drafted while they were the worst team in the league did not happen with their top 5 picks. Deroit consistently drafts well. Drafting in the top 5 is not the only way to build a winning team. Playing good hockey with good players is. Installing that winning atmospere is what needs to happen...not hoping for the next Joe Murphy or Daigle to appear.


No one is saying that they should purposely lose. They shouldn't.

What they need to do is get rid of the players that aren't going to help them win once they actually have enough talent to compete for the cup.

How long will that take? I don't know, but I do know that it's longer than Tkachuk, Guerin, Weight, and some others will be Blues players.


Ultimately there is one goal: The Stanley Cup. You build to win that.


This talk of keeping old players to show the fans you care is exactly what another Missouri sports franchise owner does: David Glass....and the Royals are exactly what the Blues are becoming if they don't choose to focus on the future and not this week.
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Postby Blue Beagle » Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:16 pm

BringBackZezel wrote:
Blue Beagle wrote:
BringBackZezel wrote:
Blue Beagle wrote:
BringBackZezel wrote:
northwest dave wrote:I think that winning games and learning how to beat good team will help this team in the future regardless if they make the playoffs. Guys like Stempy, McClement, Jackman, etc. are learning how to "Murray Hockey" and that to me means next year and the years after will be better than any top 5 pick could bring.


1. McClement, Jackman, "Stempy", and "Bass" will all still learn "Murray Hockey" completely independent of making the playoffs and trading away Tkachuk, Guerin, Brewer, Cajanek, Drake, etc....

2. "...and that to me means next year and the years after will be better than any top 5 pick could bring" is one of the most short-sighted posts ever posted here.

A top 5 pick can bring you Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Modano, Pronger, Lemieux or Jagr. The list goes on an on....and what's amazing is that aquiring any of those players are worth MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more than the difference between Stempy, McClement, Jackman 5 weeks ago and now.

Let's be realistic here.


Realisticly, the Penguins are going to have a very hard time holding on to what they have now. The truth is you have to have the Stempniaks, McClements, Salvadors, etc.


Because the Stempniaks, McClements, and Salvadors are known for their leadership and winning ways, right?

Ultimately, Stempniak and McClement are valuable because of their relatively low salary for their production. That production can be replaced on the UFA market.

Pittsburgh can't replace Crosby's production with any single player. He's the best player in the league at 19 year old and won't be a UFA for another 7 years.

You get those type of players by drafting high and drafting often.

You don't get those players by worring about the proper way to coach mid-level replaceable role players.

I'm talking about dollar value, regardless of role. There's a salary cap to work within these days.


If that's the case, you have even less of a point. The younger they get (through the draft and trades) the better off they are in terms of the salary cap.

I'm talking about them keeping these players as they mature. Oh wait, you have them winning the cup this year right?
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Postby BringBackZezel » Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:16 pm

Blue Beagle wrote:
BringBackZezel wrote:
Blue Beagle wrote:What you're saying is logical. But attendance figures really don't like, now do they?


I'm guessing you meant lie....

Here is the average att. by month for the blues:

October: 11288
November: 9705
December: 12941
January: 11459

Attendance figures don't lie:

Despite the Blues recent stretch of being the best team in the league over a 10 game span, attendance is not up, and is in fact down since December.

So about 1200 a game is your target? Might want to raise ticket prices to make that work. Keep trying.


Why would you want target 1200 a game? Do you really want the Blues to fail that bad?
[Aode] 10:34 pm: well, if I find cornhole anywhere, I'll try it and let you know
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Postby Blue Beagle » Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:17 pm

BringBackZezel wrote:
Blue Beagle wrote:
BringBackZezel wrote:
Blue Beagle wrote:What you're saying is logical. But attendance figures really don't like, now do they?


I'm guessing you meant lie....

Here is the average att. by month for the blues:

October: 11288
November: 9705
December: 12941
January: 11459

Attendance figures don't lie:

Despite the Blues recent stretch of being the best team in the league over a 10 game span, attendance is not up, and is in fact down since December.

So about 1200 a game is your target? Might want to raise ticket prices to make that work. Keep trying.


Why would you want target 1200 a game? Do you really want the Blues to fail that bad?

And suck harder for the 2nd straight season helps that how?
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