The Offseason

[Krigloch the Furious]

How is Sonne? And who is he playing for?

[glen a richter]

Payne is young, yet, and will need time to develop as a coach, just as the young players will need time to develop. I think he should get a contract with options that kick in if the team meets certain thresholds.

1 year contract for X dollars with an option for a 2nd year if the team returns to the playoffs, option for a 3rd if they reach the playoffs and win 2 rounds, option for the 4th if they reach the playoffs and win the cup. Something like that.

I also think that a lot of the younger guys from Peoria who obviously aren't getting much of a look this season should get time next season. Eller, Drazenovic, Junland, Pelletier. I think Junland should be moved to a forward position. Pietrangelo should get a longer look next season, and maybe Cole if he signs. Walt and Kariya should be replaced with a veteran who's not so grizzly and craptastic. Mason should be shown the door as well. As for who replaces him? Well, I couldn't say.

[dmiles2186]

So what is it that I'm missing? Does he get bonus points for fist-pumps?

What you are missing is the fact that the roster was devoid of any semblance of talent from 2005-2006. Let's take a look at that roster shall we?

1 Scott Young RW
2 Doug Weight C
3 Mike Sillinger C
4 Petr Cajanek RW
5 Dean McAmmond C
6 Keith Tkachuk LW
7 Lee Stempniak RW
8 Jay McClement C
9 Jamal Mayers RW
10 Dallas Drake RW
11 Dennis Wideman D
12 Christian Backman D
13 Eric Weinrich D
14 Kevin Dallman D
15 Mike Glumac RW
16 Mark Rycroft RW
17 Barret Jackman D
18 Eric Brewer D 6-3
19 Vladimir Orszagh RW
20 Ryan Johnson C
21 Jeff Hoggan LW
22 Simon Gamache C
23 Trent Whitfield C
24 Timofei Shishkanov LW
25 Eric Boguniecki C
26 Bryce Salvador D
27 Andy Roach D
28 Aaron Downey RW
29 Peter Sejna LW
30 Matt Walker D
31 Jeff Woywitka D
32 Jason Bacashihua G
33 Steve Poapst D
34 Jesse Boulerice RW
35 Jon DiSalvatore RW
36 Reinhard Divis G
37 Colin Hemingway RW
38 Patrick Lalime G
39 Curtis Sanford G
40 Mike Stuart D
41 Mike Zigomanis C
Goalies Regular Season

1 Curtis Sanford G
2 Jason Bacashihua G
3 Patrick Lalime G
4 Reinhard Divis G


I mean...seriously, look at those names. What GM is going to come in and completely purge that roster and get top flight free agents to sign for nothing? This is why free agents like McKee, Kariya, etc. cost so much to get here. You act as if some of those signings should have been like the Blackhawks signing Hossa. Guerin a bust? Really? He scored 27 goals for us before we spun him off on San Jose for draft picks, including the one that was used for Perron. Seriously, look at the '05-'06 roster and look at today's roster. At least this team is competitive. It's not a Cup contender, sure. But the teams that we used to have (full of veterans and youth that we kept trading for more veterans for Cup runs) never worked out. From the get go, JD and Pleau have said they plan to build through youth, then compliment that with signings and trades. Isn't that what they have been doing? I don't understand what's so confusing about this. From the day he was hired, JD has said this was the plan. And to write off guys like Eller and Petro just 2-3 years after they were drafted is just ridiculous. Again (how many times do I have to state this?), when both of those guys were drafted (along with Perron, Berglund, and EJ), they were labeled as potential offensive/defensive stars, but were very raw and would need time and patience to develop.

I'm not saying JD is flawless. There are some things to be concerned about. But my feeling is this, if the Blues were a consistent top 8 finisher when JD got here, you'd have every reason to be upset. But they weren't. They were the joke of the league. I think the strides they've made in 3 years has been phenomenal and I think this summer we'll really be able to see which direction the front office is going to steer the team.

[theohall]

Doing a little research, JD as an announcer for the Rangers had a ton of contact with the 1994 Rangers Cup team management.

Pleau was an assistant GM. Checketts was involved with Madison Square Garden, but hadn't bought it yet. Keenan, a future Blues coach was head coach, then. There are more if one digs through the internet. It seems clear to me JD learned a lot from seeing a) what it took to build the Rangers in to a Stanley Cup winner. And b) how quickly that base can be destroyed from within by management and coaching clashes.

This is JD's first shot at a front office NHL job. Give him the time to prove he's learned from his experience - which might take 5-6 years given the NHL's structure. Right now, the Blues are on the cusp of being an explosive offensive hockey team and JD seems to have made the right move bringing in Payne and dumping Murray - after the team had given Murray the dreaded "vote of confidence."

BTW, going back to the Caps, the Capitals defense is atrocious. They are an offense only team and if they face a team that can actually play defense in the playoffs, the Caps will lose with Jose Three-or-more in goal. But, they are scoring at a ridiculous pace and have continued doing so without the "star" Ovechkin the last two games.

You all know how we rip Jackman for blown clearing passes, defensive zone turnovers, occasionally not being physical when we know he could be. That's Mike Green on defense. Only Mike Green actually plays on the PP and can pass the puck in the offensive zone. He is horrible defensively, though. Ask any Caps fan.

[DaDitka]

I'm not saying JD is flawless. There are some things to be concerned about. I think the strides they've made in 3 years has been phenomenal and I think this summer we'll really be able to see which direction the front office is going to steer the team.

This is all I was saying, though a 3 year development....

We took a huge jump when he took ever from 57 to 81 points but it’s been almost stagnate since…

81 pts
79 pts
92 pts
And this year we are sitting at 73 points
Figure an average of 1 pt per remaining game and we’re at 86 points again.


The team was terrible when he took over, but one could just as easily argue that’s what made the drastic turnaround off the bat so easy to accomplish.

This offseason is when he should be judged. It’s time to start getting contributions from his draft classes and you can no longer use the excuses of Free Agents wanting more to come here or refusing to come here if you have indeed fixed it.

I’m not saying he’s been bad at all, I’m just saying it’s time to earn that paycheck in what should be a pivotal offseason for this team.

[cprice12]

So now what?
The playoffs are all but out of reach now.

What do you guys want to see happen?

Who do we resign?
Who do we let walk?
What free agents do we target?
What will the goaltending look like next season?
Will Payne be retained as head coach?

List of available free agents...a lot of interesting names out there right now:
http://www.nhlnumbers.com/freeagents.php

The Blues UFA's and RFA's:
http://www.nhlnumbers.com/overview.php? ... eason=0910

Linky

... seems like we already had this thread started, Curt.

Nice of you guys to finally figure out what I said a month ago.

When you started your thread, it was NOT clear we weren't making the playoffs. If I remember correctly, we got to within one point of 8th place after you started your thread.

So...suck it.

[not_a_wings_fan]

When you started your thread, it was NOT clear we weren't making the playoffs. If I remember correctly, we got to within one point of 8th place after you started your thread.

So...suck it.

... not clear to you, maybe.

And when we were "1 point" out of 8th place, the other teams had games in hand. We were honestly never closer than 3 pts out from where I sit.

Just sayin...

[Wulfen]

I'm not saying JD is flawless. There are some things to be concerned about. I think the strides they've made in 3 years has been phenomenal and I think this summer we'll really be able to see which direction the front office is going to steer the team.

This is all I was saying, though a 3 year development....

We took a huge jump when he took ever from 57 to 81 points but it’s been almost stagnate since…

81 pts
79 pts
92 pts
And this year we are sitting at 73 points
Figure an average of 1 pt per remaining game and we’re at 86 points again.


The team was terrible when he took over, but one could just as easily argue that’s what made the drastic turnaround off the bat so easy to accomplish.

This offseason is when he should be judged. It’s time to start getting contributions from his draft classes and you can no longer use the excuses of Free Agents wanting more to come here or refusing to come here if you have indeed fixed it.

I’m not saying he’s been bad at all, I’m just saying it’s time to earn that paycheck in what should be a pivotal offseason for this team.

Completely agreed. Young guys are starting to become depended on and are learning to play well together especially in Payne's system. I think the seasonal point total will remain about the same until we get that X factor player like Kariya was supposed to be when we signed him. Whether it be a FA signing or one of our young guy becoming a super star that is the guy we are lacking and need.

Guerin (bust)

How was Guerin a bust? He signed here relatively cheap after a down year in Dallas and score 28 goals before the trade deadline. We all knew he was a rental player for the Blues so we then traded him for crap players and a pick that turned into Perron. All in all I would say he was one of the bright spots.

[TheoSqua]

Really this team is way ahead of schedule in the rebuild. Last season, while being an anamoly, is very rare for teams rebuilding from the depths of where the Blues were.

here's some teams that have had to completely rebuild over the last decade, their point totals, and how long it took them to finally make the playoffs:

Phoenix:
2001: 95
2002: 78
2003: 68
2005: 81
2006: 67
2007: 83
2008: 79
2009: 107 (projected) //7th season

Chicago:
2001: 96
2002: 79
2003: 59
2005: 65
2006: 71
2007: 88
2008: 104 //6th season

Columbus:
2001: 57
2002: 69
2003: 62
2005: 74
2006: 73
2007: 80
2008: 92 //7th season

Pittsburgh:
2001: 69
2002: 65
2003: 58
2005: 58
2006: 105 //5th season

Florida:
//currently in the 9th year of their "rebuild"

Toronto:
//Currently in the 5th year of their rebuild.

Atlanta:
1999: 39
2000: 60
2001: 54
2002: 74
2003: 78
2005: 90
2006: 97 //7th season

St. Louis:
2005: 57
2006: 81
2007: 79
2008: 92 //4th season

Even when compared to Pittsburgh, who had a top5 pick 5 years in a row (2nd over all pick in 2006, first overall in 2005, 2nd overall in 2004, the first overall in 2003, 5th overall in 2002) the Blues rebounded into the playoffs faster than most teams doing a complete rebuild. Most of these last place teams don't become playoff bound until the 6 or 7 seasons after they miss the playoffs, which would be next season or the season after. Most teams don't even hit 80 points until 4-5 seasons in, the Blues did that the season after.


Edit: also if you look at the Blues draft positions, they didn't exactly start from an enviable position or have depth in the minors from high draft picks before JD got here:

St. Louis
2009: 17th
2008: 6th
2007: 13th, 18th, 26th
2006: 1st, 25th
2005: 24th
2004: 17th
2003: 30th
2002: none
2001: none
2000: 30th

And those 3 extra first round picks were given to St. Louis for Kieth Tkachuk, Bill Guerin, and Dough Weight. All of which were half-season rentals and a total steal. That doesnt even include that Tkachuk and Weight resigned with St. Louis, then the team gained Andy McDonald by trading Weight a second time. All those moves were brilliant from JD, it's not like they were dealing Illya Kovalchuk here...

[richtedm]

I'm not saying JD is flawless. There are some things to be concerned about. I think the strides they've made in 3 years has been phenomenal and I think this summer we'll really be able to see which direction the front office is going to steer the team.

This is all I was saying, though a 3 year development....

We took a huge jump when he took ever from 57 to 81 points but it’s been almost stagnate since…

81 pts
79 pts
92 pts
And this year we are sitting at 73 points
Figure an average of 1 pt per remaining game and we’re at 86 points again.


The team was terrible when he took over, but one could just as easily argue that’s what made the drastic turnaround off the bat so easy to accomplish.

This offseason is when he should be judged. It’s time to start getting contributions from his draft classes and you can no longer use the excuses of Free Agents wanting more to come here or refusing to come here if you have indeed fixed it.

I’m not saying he’s been bad at all, I’m just saying it’s time to earn that paycheck in what should be a pivotal offseason for this team.

Didn't we just have a discussion about how you need hindsight to judge offseason acquisitions? or acquisitions of any sort? I think we both agreed there. I don't think we will be ready to judge JD and Co at the end of this offseason. If the moves made this off-season don't lead to the playoffs, THEN I can start criticizing/being frustrated. Then we can look BACK on it and say, "Maybe he isn't making the best moves."

I don't know, maybe I just think its presumptive to criticize others who are in a much better position to know what is going on, when the moves they make are usually sound and perceived well at the time they were made. These guys are human, they can't see the future, they can get lucky and unlucky, and they can make intelligent decisions. So far I have seen intelligent decisions, a lot of which of gone right, some of which have gone wrong. Thats ok with me. When the decisions start to look questionable on their face and also lead to poor results, then I will start having issues.

[DaDitka]

If the moves made this off-season don't lead to the playoffs, THEN I can start criticizing/being frustrated. Then we can look BACK on it and say, "Maybe he isn't making the best moves."

That is EXACTLY what I'm saying. That almost word for word what I said in the other thread. If this team isn't easily in the playoffs at this point next year and worrying about who we are going to face and if we'll have home ice in the first round, then he's failed.

My point is that there have not been enough good results to state unequivocally that he is doing a good job, likewise there is not enough evidence to state that he is not. But considering were we sit now (talent and spendable money wise) and the number of drafts he’s ran, this offseason sets up perfectly as a great barometer of how he’s doing. And we cannot judge this offseason until we see the results at this time next year.

The 'final piece' is JD. Time to see it that piece fits or not. I'm betting it does, just saying that he needs to go out and earn it.

[richtedm]

If the moves made this off-season don't lead to the playoffs, THEN I can start criticizing/being frustrated. Then we can look BACK on it and say, "Maybe he isn't making the best moves."

That is EXACTLY what I'm saying. That almost word for word what I said in the other thread. If this team isn't easily in the playoffs at this point next year and worrying about who we are going to face and if we'll have home ice in the first round, then he's failed.

My point is that there have not been enough good results to state unequivocally that he is doing a good job, likewise there is not enough evidence to state that he is not. But considering were we sit now (talent and spendable money wise) and the number of drafts he’s ran, this offseason sets up perfectly as a great barometer of how he’s doing. And we cannot judge this offseason until we see the results at this time next year.

The 'final piece' is JD. Time to see it that piece fits or not. I'm betting it does, just saying that he needs to go out and earn it.

I can agree with that. I just don't get the people out there calling him a con-artist... when I think he has been absolutely frank with the fans since day one. He also wants to sell tickets and make money, its a business. Deal with it people.

[STLADOGG]

John Davidson took over for the Blues on June 30, 2006.
Trade: Janssen for Salvador (lol)

I miss the ol Salvador. Lucky Lucky Lucky (devils)

[WaukeeBlues]

John Davidson took over for the Blues on June 30, 2006.
Trade: Janssen for Salvador (lol)

I miss the ol Salvador. Lucky Lucky Lucky (devils)

Don't forget Sillinger for Shishkanov!!!

[Nyghtewynd]

And today's performance is why keeping Davis Payne is a sure sign that this team is multiple years from doing anything significant. I'll probably tell my season ticket agent the same thing when he calls this week...I'll be seeing what the team does in the offseason and allocating my money accordingly. I'm not paying another "entertainment" dollar for a team that's not entertaining.

[glen a richter]

Now would be a good time to call up pretty much everyone. Let's see what Eller, Junland, Drazenovic, Pelletier, Bishop (as the backup to Conks), Pietrangelo can all do given 10 games to do it.

[fargoblues]

Now would be a good time to call up pretty much everyone. Let's see what Eller, Junland, Drazenovic, Pelletier, Bishop (as the backup to Conks), Pietrangelo can all do given 10 games to do it.

^^^^^THIS^^^^^

Now, does the organ-eye-zation have the man-berries to do it?

[WaukeeBlues]

Now would be a good time to call up pretty much everyone. Let's see what Eller, Junland, Drazenovic, Pelletier, Bishop (as the backup to Conks), Pietrangelo can all do given 10 games to do it.

^^^^^THIS^^^^^

Now, does the organ-eye-zation have the man-berries to do it?

Concede defeat? That's an act of courage?

[fargoblues]

Now would be a good time to call up pretty much everyone. Let's see what Eller, Junland, Drazenovic, Pelletier, Bishop (as the backup to Conks), Pietrangelo can all do given 10 games to do it.

^^^^^THIS^^^^^

Now, does the organ-eye-zation have the man-berries to do it?

Concede defeat? That's an act of courage?

Recognize the situation and prepare for the future? Sit the underachieving millions in wasted payroll on the pine and see what the utes can do? Yes. That would be pretty ballsy.

It's not the fact that the Blues lost yesterday that spells the end of the season. It's the method in which they did it.

[DaDitka]

Now would be a good time to call up pretty much everyone. Let's see what Eller, Junland, Drazenovic, Pelletier, Bishop (as the backup to Conks), Pietrangelo can all do given 10 games to do it.

They can't do that. The current roster isn't going to get us to renew our tickets and as soon as everyone else realizes that Bishop is not an NHL talent and that Eller and Pie are still a season away, they'll really see a huge dip in renewals.

Resigning Carlo would get my money way before trying to sell me Pie or Junland.

I’m not buying into this organization selling me ‘prospects’. The last ‘great’ player we drafted was Doug Gilmore.

Oh, and if Payne wants to convince anyone he’s ready for the big time, he had damn well be better down at Scottrade right now having that sorry excuse for a hockey player that wears the number 42 skating sprints for an hour straight.

How his azz wasn’t pulled off the ice last night is beyond me.