JR: Petro and Blues aren't close

[WaukeeBlues]

According to JR on the Athletic. Petro and the Blues aren't close. Sounds like the blues are basically low-balling him: some reports of 5 years, $7 mill being offered. Petro is disappointed and frustrated with the process. Word on the street it he was originally seeking Josi deal but would likely agree to fall somewhere between that and $8 mill. I'm assuming he'd want the 8 years. JR ended with the fact that if his wife and family weren't from St. Louis he'd already have told the blues he's gone.

[JCShutout]

Hate to lose petro but it is what it is and at least we know.

You still have Parayko (and the money to keep him) and Faulk on the right (Faulk has to be better next year, right?) and scandella and probably Dunn on the left, with boom boom and a bunch of kids too.

And you have plenty of money to keep the forward corps together for a good long while. (Schwartz!)

I’m guessing we see a depth 3rd pairing rd signing to make bort the 7th man, Dunn resigned and a third line ish rw in case kyrou or klostin don’t stick in the top9.

[WaukeeBlues]

Hate to lose petro but it is what it is and at least we know.

You still have Parayko (and the money to keep him) and Faulk on the right (Faulk has to be better next year, right?) and scandella and probably Dunn on the left, with boom boom and a bunch of kids too.

And you have plenty of money to keep the forward corps together for a good long while. (Schwartz!)

I’m guessing we see a depth 3rd pairing rd signing to make bort the 7th man, Dunn resigned and a third line ish rw in case kyrou or klostin don’t stick in the top9.

I'm a mix of emotions. Part of me is frustrated with Army. Why we low balling him so much when he's shown a propensity to sign guys to long extensions? (Schenn, Faulk?). And THIS is the player you decide to take your stand against that on? Really? C'mon man, a 7-8 year deal at $7.5 for him is NOT bad. It's really not. Yea ok it'll suck on years 5-8 but aren't we "win now"?

On the other hand, I get it. Corona has ruined the cap expectations for this team moving forward and not having Petro basically solves the problem. But damn man... ugh

[glen a richter]

Well there's no lack of depth on D in the system so move around who you need to move around to get everyone on their proper side and have at the kids. There's certainly enough veteran presence on the blueline to guide them without having Pietrangelo there. And if as I suggested in a different thread they can manage to get Bouw, whose playing days I'm sure are over, to work with them then even better.

Can't keep the band together forever and it's not like the entire team returned the next season anyway. Thanks for the Cup, Alex. Good luck in ___________. Toronto? New York City? Vegas?

[gaijin]

The thing with losing Petro is that the rest of the defense simply hasn't been solid since the re-start. That's my greatest fear if he walks. As mentioned, the Blues still have names like Parayko, Faulk, Scandella and Dunn on the blueline, but how well have those names performed since July? Not so good. If that trend continues next season AND there is no Petro, the Blues will be in a world of hurt.

[JCShutout]

Yeah, I mean, I’d rather have bokk and petro and 7.5-8 per (even if the last 3 years are rough) than Faulk at 6.5, but the damage is done.

[theohall]

The issue I see - is the majority of contending teams don't have the cap space either to offer Petro an 8M+ per year deal without moving someone significant out. Flat cap is a big issue for a bunch of teams.

The Blues aren't the only one with a cap issue.

Boston might not be able to keep Krug - he's already on record as not signing for a discount - and with Chara wanting to come back, Boston has a cap problem in relation to those two. Re-sign Chara - Krugs gone. Don't re-sign Chara, keep Krug, and the fan base revolts... even though that's the more logical thing to do.

While it's sad that Petro is probably gone - this is his one and only big pay day contract where he holds the cards - not the team. Same thing for Krug.

The question Petro has to ask - is he willing to play for a non-contending team for a big payday?

[WaukeeBlues]

The issue I see - is the majority of contending teams don't have the cap space either to offer Petro an 8M+ per year deal without moving someone significant out. Flat cap is a big issue for a bunch of teams.

The Blues aren't the only one with a cap issue.

Boston might not be able to keep Krug - he's already on record as not signing for a discount - and with Chara wanting to come back, Boston has a cap problem in relation to those two. Re-sign Chara - Krugs gone. Don't re-sign Chara, keep Krug, and the fan base revolts... even though that's the more logical thing to do.

While it's sad that Petro is probably gone - this is his one and only big pay day contract where he holds the cards - not the team. Same thing for Krug.

The question Petro has to ask - is he willing to play for a non-contending team for a big payday?

I could see Toronto moving heaven and earth to get him. They *might* even be willing to trade Marner to make it happen. They have been DYING for a #1 RD for basically their entire rebuild.

Fooling around on the capfriendly interactive GM, they could arguably be done at D with Petro signed. Trade Dermott's rights maybe.

That'd leave bare minimum 3 forward spots to fill at about negative 2 million in cap space. It's not impossible but they'd have to trade a big name with virtually no money coming back, which itself is a really difficult proposition.

San Jose could but the last thing they need is another high priced Dman.

Winnipeg has space, barely. It'd make their forward cap space tight. They might be THE best team that would have the cap space to do it (does Petro want to live in Winnipeg?)

Calgary would have the space if they swap Petro for their outgoing D-men and don't re-sign them. Even then it'd still be tight for them.

Buffalo but they're (at best) a bubble to compete for the playoffs, not a contender.

That's about the list.

[JCShutout]

https://twitter.com/jprutherford/status ... 1633974273

Per JR: I just hung up with Blues captain Alex Pietrangelo. He believes he’s headed to the market, but he has not ruled out a deal with the Blues.
@DarrenDreger reported that sources tell him that talks have broken off and the Blues have told Pietrangelo to pursue free agency. #stlblues

[theohall]

NHL Radio was discussing this the other day and if Petro wants 9M per year, it isn't likely going to be for a "good" team outside of Winnipeg or Colorado. Were Colorado to sign him to a Josi deal, something has to give next later. They have 22M in cap space, but have 11 free agents (UFA and RFAs combined) this off-season. But that would created the issue of MacKinnon making 6.3M as, arguably one of the top two forwards in the NHL and Petro making 9M. Would Colorado try to move EJ were they to sign Petro to balance things somewhat salary wise? Does Petro really want to play for Winnipeg? Does he really want to go to a non-contender since that's pretty much what's left for teams with room?

Teams just don't have the space without moving significant pieces around due to the flat cap and that continues to be an issue for the 21-22 season which also has the expansion draft. Bad time to be a high-end UFA due to circumstances. And even it teams could move pieces, other teams aren't making deals, because it would mean them moving pieces to make space also and teams flat out don't have the space.

As an aside - all of them wish GMs would be more aggressive with RFAs since it just costs draft picks. Mike Rupp pointed out from 97-99 the NY Islanders had 8 1st round draft picks (including himself). None of them played for the Islanders. So use your picks to guarantee quality talent, instead. Interesting thought, which won't happen due to the good old boy GM code of not signing RFAs.

[gaijin]

https://twitter.com/jprutherford/status ... 1633974273

Per JR: I just hung up with Blues captain Alex Pietrangelo. He believes he’s headed to the market, but he has not ruled out a deal with the Blues.
@DarrenDreger reported that sources tell him that talks have broken off and the Blues have told Pietrangelo to pursue free agency. #stlblues

I find it hard to believe there is not a middle ground number both parties can be satisfied with. Sure, Petro has a dollar amount and term he would like, and the Blues organization has a dollar amount and term they would like. That's just the way things work. And the wider the gap between those two, the harder it is to find the acceptable middle ground. But are the Blues and Petro really THAT far apart? It didn't seem to me like it was that much. Maybe $1.5 to 2 million and 2 years difference between what the Blues want and what Petro wants? It's not like he is asking $10 million for 10 years, is he?

I think if you are the Blues, you give Petro closer to what he is asking rather than stick to your guns, especially if the numbers aren't that terribly far apart. The primary reason being- well, name a Blues captain besides Pietrangelo who has won a Stanley Cup. And yes, I know there are cap space issues, but those can be addressed- we've already seen salary dump moves and discussed many more. Concerns about his contract becoming an albatross in 7-8 years? Sure, valid concern, but it wouldn't be the first time such a contract happened. And if you are going to give out a contract to anyone for longer-term than you would like, the player I would be most comfortable doing that for is the captain who led the team to its first Stanley Cup. Plus, being a defenseman, he (statistically) is more likely to maintain his performance later into his career (as opposed to a forward), making a longer-term contract less of a risk.

It just shocks me these two parties can't come to an agreement.

/two cents

[ComradeT]

I get it that the Blues don't have cap space to sign Petro... However, I would love for them to find a way to move Faulk and keep Pietro. In terms of chemistry and contribution to the team, Faulk has been a negative, even taking into account his somewhat improved offensive play during playoffs. I don't see him as one of the future leaders on defense for the Blues. Losing Petro is a huge blow. There are definitely teams with cap space and need for the #1 D who will gladly sign him. Get it done Army!!

[goon attack]

he's boring
bye

[glen a richter]

he's boring
bye

That Cup was awfully boring, wasn’t it?

Though I fundamentally agree this team will survive post-Petro for reasons I’ve cited before. If he walks he walks.

[theohall]

The cap space problem isn't a minor one... There aren't trade partners which would normally exist, because those teams don't have cap space either. From Petro's persective, this is his big contract. Most players only get one shot at them, so he's going to demand the most he can get - because he's a Stanley Cup captain winning, right-handed shot, all-star defenseman. If the Blues can't move someone, they can't pay him the 9M per year he wants, and that is supposedly the number, which won't come down - rightfully so. There is barely over 5M in cap space, so the most the Blues can offer, without moving someone, is just over 5M... right now. They can't even give Petro his last contract (6.5M AAV) right now. What's Armstrong supposed to do? Violate the cap or magically create cap space for teams that don't have it? The Blues can't even offer Petro a reasonable bridge contract right now. It's not a matter of wanting to make a reasonable offer. It's a matter of the space being non-existent.

All that being said, signing Faulk to that contract was a mistake which most of us thought was a mistake when it was done before the season started. Finding someone in a cap-strained league environment to take on a contract from a defenseman who underperformed is not a small issue. Granted, Armstrong has done it in the past, but that involved giving up prospects and draft picks to get them to take the bad contract. I'm not even sure that will help given how many teams simply don't have space.

Saying one understands the cap is a problem is one thing. Acknowledging the severity of the issue is another.

The potential penalties for circumventing the cap include: losing the amount of the bad contract from your cap the following season, pay a bunch of fines - both team and player, forfeit games in which the player whose contract went over played, have the contract voided, lose draft picks, etc. Which is why teams don't circumvent the cap. The penalties were changed to be more sever in the 2013 CBA - basically because the Blackhawks cheated back in 2010 and GMs were ticked the punishment wasn't severe enough.

It's a flat cap for 21-22 also, and the following are all due contracts

Steen (probably retiring)
Schwartz
Bozak
Sanford
Barbashev
Thomas
Kyrou
De La Rose (I know, so what?)
Gunnarson
and
Binnington

There are 3 "big" names that deserve to be paid on that list (Schwartz, Thomas, Binnington), plus Sanford and Barbashev are both due raises. Binnington gambled on himself signing a 2-year deal and could wind up being screwed by the flat cap also.

[goon attack]

he's boring
bye

That Cup was awfully boring, wasn’t it?

Your mom isn't

[WaukeeBlues]

The cap space problem isn't a minor one... There aren't trade partners which would normally exist, because those teams don't have cap space either. From Petro's persective, this is his big contract. Most players only get one shot at them, so he's going to demand the most he can get - because he's a Stanley Cup captain winning, right-handed shot, all-star defenseman. If the Blues can't move someone, they can't pay him the 9M per year he wants, and that is supposedly the number, which won't come down - rightfully so. There is barely over 5M in cap space, so the most the Blues can offer, without moving someone, is just over 5M... right now. They can't even give Petro his last contract (6.5M AAV) right now. What's Armstrong supposed to do? Violate the cap or magically create cap space for teams that don't have it? The Blues can't even offer Petro a reasonable bridge contract right now. It's not a matter of wanting to make a reasonable offer. It's a matter of the space being non-existent.

All that being said, signing Faulk to that contract was a mistake which most of us thought was a mistake when it was done before the season started. Finding someone in a cap-strained league environment to take on a contract from a defenseman who underperformed is not a small issue. Granted, Armstrong has done it in the past, but that involved giving up prospects and draft picks to get them to take the bad contract. I'm not even sure that will help given how many teams simply don't have space.

Saying one understands the cap is a problem is one thing. Acknowledging the severity of the issue is another.

The potential penalties for circumventing the cap include: losing the amount of the bad contract from your cap the following season, pay a bunch of fines - both team and player, forfeit games in which the player whose contract went over played, have the contract voided, lose draft picks, etc. Which is why teams don't circumvent the cap. The penalties were changed to be more sever in the 2013 CBA - basically because the Blackhawks cheated back in 2010 and GMs were ticked the punishment wasn't severe enough.

It's a flat cap for 21-22 also, and the following are all due contracts

Steen (probably retiring)
Schwartz
Bozak
Sanford
Barbashev
Thomas
Kyrou
De La Rose (I know, so what?)
Gunnarson
and
Binnington

There are 3 "big" names that deserve to be paid on that list (Schwartz, Thomas, Binnington), plus Sanford and Barbashev are both due raises. Binnington gambled on himself signing a 2-year deal and could wind up being screwed by the flat cap also.

It's really difficult (for me anyway) to separate the emotional part of "losing the captain" with the reality on the ground. ALL of those things: A flat cap world, knowing Petro wants to stay, already having Faulk, no cap space... are all the reasons and then some that Army is playing such hard ball with Petro.

What pisses me off the most is that THIS is the player you decided to do it with? Faulk was a pure leverage and replacement move by Army. He had some flashes this year in the bubble but other than that that trade and extension have been a colossal mistake, like you say, but it's one we're stuck with now. But seriously, Army, you extend Faulk, you extend Schenn, you re-sign some other guys (I know, younger and shorter term) but NOW when you arrive at Petro THAT's the line that shan't be crossed? Give me a f**** break.

I'm getting more ticked off with the Blues daily and I personally think Petro is gone. He has reason to be annoyed and frustrated with how the Blues brass have treated him the last year or so and I don't blame him in the least for bouncing, if that ultimately occurs.

No question there's a bunch of posturing going on. The most obvious being this last Friday announcement of "talks broken off with organization informing Pietrangelo to explore free agency." Really? With like 2+ weeks to go? That's like the spiteful girlfriend being like "well why don't you just LEAVE then?!"

It'll be a small miracle at this point if the Blues re-sign Petro. Maybe long term that's for the best but it sure as sh*t doesn't feel like it.

[WaukeeBlues]

Epilogue: To the "flat salary cap world" comment: That is absolutely true.

It's a REALLY small list of teams who can take on a $9-$10 AAV contract in this league who are in any kind of competitive nature. And the teams that aren't competitive that DO have the space don't want to be taking on that salary and there's no reason Petro would want to go.

As I said earlier in this thread: There's about 3-4 teams that can realistically get Petro and if the Leafs are one of them they'll have to move heaven and earth to make it happen.

Maybe we get to Oct. 9 and Petro sees what the market offers and it's less than he thought it would be and circles back to the Blues. Who knows.

[theohall]

The mistake was signing Faulk, instead of locking up Pietrangelo. That could have been done then and ticks me off, too. Why was a player brought in as a fill-in given priority for a new contract over the !@#$!$R@ Captain??

Then all the Blues would be worried about is Faulk - and no Blues fans would care... (of course, hindsight being 20/20 and all).

While folks keep mentioning the "flashes" from Faulk in the playoffs - 2 good games? So what?? He didn't deserve the grade JR gave him given he was instrumental in so many goals against being scored which led to losses. Had he actually not been a turnover machine in the round-robin, the Blues might have faced an easier seed in the 1st round.

[theohall]

Pierre Lebrun on NHL Radio yesterday paraphrased: the majority of GMs who need to move players to create cap space are all extremely worried, because they aren't finding trade partners thanks to the flat cap. Also, the teams who have the space might not want to take on said salaries, because of the flat cap for the 21-22 season, as well.

Big problem for St Louis who needs to create space just to have a chance at signing Pietrangelo when essentially no one is willing to take on salaries. They were fortunate Montreal agreed to the Allen trade which many folks questioned Montreal's angle on it - other than short season/2 goalies - but that amount of money for 2 goalies??