offseason so far

[gaijin]

Arizona?

[glen a richter]

Arizona, Las Vegas, a desert is a desert, and they'll both have deserted arenas.

[theohall]

Arizona, Las Vegas, a desert is a desert, and they'll both have deserted arenas.

Exactly.

[ecbm]

What kind of team just won the Stanley Cup?

Regardless of size, Penguins still have guys who can & do hit. Hornqvist had 169 hits, Kunitz 264-hell even Crosby and Hagelin chipped in 90 and 84, respectively. Those four had 73 more hits last season than the entire top 9 of the Blues as projected (among whom the leading hitter was Perron). I wonder about the group being soft but moreso about how Hitchcock is going to coach them. No point asking this group to get 70 hits in a game for example unless you're planning to give Reaves 22 minutes.

So, I'm to expect that Hitchcock is going to coach a skill-heavy, physically light team that contains at least a couple guys with whom he's had friction and that they are, in fact, not going to hit much, probably not even at a league average pace? I'm fascinated to see how this goes, but not really in a good way.

it's time to move on and transition to a Cup champion type team - not a Ken Hitchcock heavy only heavy first team.

Agreed, but I don't see this happening. I see a motley collection of willy-nilly moves that kind of look like this (Backes & Brouwer out; Perron in) but also kind of don't (Hitchcock retained and his hand-picked successor, a very similar coach, to follow) and some that are just bizarre (Perron in; handling of the goalie situation). Armstrong's tunnel vision re trading 22 and subsequent frustration have put him in panic mode and exposed a lack of a plan B. Perron feels like the same sort of "oh shit" move in response to not getting Hall that overpaying Ott was to Sobotka bolting.

I'm just looking for a plan and not seeing it. I'm hoping there's something I've missed.

[glen a richter]

I'm very curious which prospects will stay at the nhl level. Given the moves made, there's a very real need for guys like Maceachern and Musil.

[theohall]

What kind of team just won the Stanley Cup?

Regardless of size, Penguins still have guys who can & do hit. Hornqvist had 169 hits, Kunitz 264-hell even Crosby and Hagelin chipped in 90 and 84, respectively. Those four had 73 more hits last season than the entire top 9 of the Blues as projected (among whom the leading hitter was Perron). I wonder about the group being soft but moreso about how Hitchcock is going to coach them. No point asking this group to get 70 hits in a game for example unless you're planning to give Reaves 22 minutes.

So, I'm to expect that Hitchcock is going to coach a skill-heavy, physically light team that contains at least a couple guys with whom he's had friction and that they are, in fact, not going to hit much, probably not even at a league average pace? I'm fascinated to see how this goes, but not really in a good way.

it's time to move on and transition to a Cup champion type team - not a Ken Hitchcock heavy only heavy first team.

Agreed, but I don't see this happening. I see a motley collection of willy-nilly moves that kind of look like this (Backes & Brouwer out; Perron in) but also kind of don't (Hitchcock retained and his hand-picked successor, a very similar coach, to follow) and some that are just bizarre (Perron in; handling of the goalie situation). Armstrong's tunnel vision re trading 22 and subsequent frustration have put him in panic mode and exposed a lack of a plan B. Perron feels like the same sort of "oh shit" move in response to not getting Hall that overpaying Ott was to Sobotka bolting.

I'm just looking for a plan and not seeing it. I'm hoping there's something I've missed.

At least Perron isn't over-paid and has an easily movable contract should the need arise.

[goon attack]

I can't be totally pessimistic about a roster that still has the following:


15
17
20
26
55
91

Sayin.

Brouwer and Backes both had career years in the playoffs. The chances of themn duplicating that are not high.

I miss both those guys already, but a few others just need to step up.

If there is a healthy culture of accountability and leadership, this team can win.

[glen a richter]

This team has seen extremely great rosters, extremely shit rosters, and a smorgasbord of in-between quality rosters all fail in the postseason. Realistically, we're a post or two away from not even making it out of the first round again this season.

Depending on two main things, I'm cautiously optimistic that this upcoming year, at the least, won't be worse than previous years.

#1... does Shatty get traded/for whom/which prospect (or Lindbohm) wins the battle for his roster spot?

#2... do voids in the lineup get filled by the kids like Barbashev/Rattie/Maceachern/Musil or by guys on tryout contracts, like Gomez/Upshall were last season?

I think there's enough existing talent on this team, and arguably one of, if not the most balanced two way defense corps in the league that incorporating a fair amount of youth certainly won't hurt the teams progress moving forward. I miss Backes as much as many on here, but his contract with Boston is stupid and they'll regret it in a couple of seasons. He also never won a Cup with us, and his leadership characteristics were questionable at times. It's time to move forward with a new core, and because entirely of what Goon pointed out, the guys who are still here and still really really good, we're not as doomed as everyone is making it out to be.

One thing I noticed about Minnesota two years ago was that they were much much faster than us. We looked like we were skating in molasses which killed us--always two strides behind the play. I'm not wild about Mike Yeo, but I'm optimistic that he'll probably bring a faster game and that's what they're gearing up for. It's a roster transition designed to accommodate what Yeo wants to bring, and we're going to get a taste of what's to come this season.

[Oaklandblue]

This team has seen extremely great rosters, extremely shit rosters, and a smorgasbord of in-between quality rosters all fail in the postseason. Realistically, we're a post or two away from not even making it out of the first round again this season.

Depending on two main things, I'm cautiously optimistic that this upcoming year, at the least, won't be worse than previous years.

#1... does Shatty get traded/for whom/which prospect (or Lindbohm) wins the battle for his roster spot?

#2... do voids in the lineup get filled by the kids like Barbashev/Rattie/Maceachern/Musil or by guys on tryout contracts, like Gomez/Upshall were last season?

I think there's enough existing talent on this team, and arguably one of, if not the most balanced two way defense corps in the league that incorporating a fair amount of youth certainly won't hurt the teams progress moving forward. I miss Backes as much as many on here, but his contract with Boston is stupid and they'll regret it in a couple of seasons. He also never won a Cup with us, and his leadership characteristics were questionable at times. It's time to move forward with a new core, and because entirely of what Goon pointed out, the guys who are still here and still really really good, we're not as doomed as everyone is making it out to be.

One thing I noticed about Minnesota two years ago was that they were much much faster than us. We looked like we were skating in molasses which killed us--always two strides behind the play. I'm not wild about Mike Yeo, but I'm optimistic that he'll probably bring a faster game and that's what they're gearing up for. It's a roster transition designed to accommodate what Yeo wants to bring, and we're going to get a taste of what's to come this season.

Plans for the future have destroyed our chance at winning the Cup at the present.

[ecbm]

Plans for the future have destroyed our chance at winning the Cup at the present.

This club seems eternally concerned with the next draft, developing the next kid, anticipating the cap two seasons down the road, etc., etc. All well & good but meanwhile there seems to be no commensurate plan for winning now.

I don't hate the Perron move for example. I was one of his very few defenders when he was here. Letting Brouwer & Backes go makes sense too.

Then we get to the goalies and trading #22. Apparently, this is all about expiring contracts, the expansion draft and cap management. What about winning now? That's where, try as I might, I see no clear way forward-only reaction. You can be small and quick and win in the NHL today but did Hitchcock & Armstrong really decide to put together one of the lightest-hitting (possibly THE lightest-hitting) group of forwards in the league? I seriously doubt it. I'd like to see that question asked. My interpretation is that there was so much focus on medium/long-term administration/management that this just happened incidentally. Nobody cared because, hey, cap issues averted; priority #1 handled!! Yayz! We'll get 'em with the NEXT crop of kids, who really really are THE SHIT this time.

(But don't pay too much attention to Yeo's record for brining along young talent.)

I can't say I'm pessimistic but I don't see this team as improved at all. Given their inability to get it done in the past, I guess the club is counting on better luck. Again.

[glen a richter]

My concern about this teams future at d is non-existent. Any one of the fifty billion dmen we've drafted will eventually replace Shatty just fine. I'm not concerned about goal, present or long term. Even if Allen proves only adequate as a #1 such goalies have won Cups before. Look at Chris Os-not so-good, Marc Andre Fleury, Corey Crawford and Antii Niemi. My concern is a lack of offensive firepower beyond components of the top two lines... Tarasenko, Fabbri, Schwartz and Steen. We need to get more offense. Our defense plus Dallas' offense plus adequate tending is a surefire Cup. The problem with Armstrong has always been meeting the wrong needs. We didn't need Bouwmeester but he got him anyway. We didn't need Miller and certainly not Ott but he got them anyway. We need supplementary scoring. Otherwise this team will never win in the playoffs.

[WaukeeBlues]

My concern about this teams future at d is non-existent. Any one of the fifty billion dmen we've drafted will eventually replace Shatty just fine. I'm not concerned about goal, present or long term. Even if Allen proves only adequate as a #1 such goalies have won Cups before. Look at Chris Os-not so-good, Marc Andre Fleury, Corey Crawford and Antii Niemi. My concern is a lack of offensive firepower beyond components of the top two lines... Tarasenko, Fabbri, Schwartz and Steen. We need to get more offense. Our defense plus Dallas' offense plus adequate tending is a surefire Cup. The problem with Armstrong has always been meeting the wrong needs. We didn't need Bouwmeester but he got him anyway. We didn't need Miller and certainly not Ott but he got them anyway. We need supplementary scoring. Otherwise this team will never win in the playoffs.

I wish Armstrong had found a way to sweeten the pot enough to land Hall. I know Chiarelli really wanted assurances that Shattenkirk would stay long term but I just cannot get over the fact that the Devils more or less fleeced the Oilers into acquiring one of the top scoring left wingers in the entire league and we couldn't put something better together that he'd bite on.

If we're talking about acquiring Taylor Hall I think Pietrangelo is about the only guy back there I wouldn't consider trading for him straight up or as part of a packaged deal.

But I agree with you whole heartedly. With Backes and Brouwer departing we lost about 40 goals for next season. That's going to have to be made up somewhere. Tarasenko can't do it all by himself. If this team is truly done making deals or signings that's putting a LOT of pressure on the other top 5 forwards to really get their butts in gear.

Schwartz and Fabbri can improve their output but the rest of the bunch? Stastny could/should be putting in 20 a year so that takes us down to 30. But I fear the rest have just about hit their ceilings as far as what production we're going to get out of them. Even with a full year from Berglund and some nominal increases from Parayko (if more PP time especially), etc... I just don't see it. It compounds if we deal Shatty and his 14 goals/PP time.

Loaded on defense, goaltending has to just be average, and then scoring... and then scoring... yea.

[Oaklandblue]

My concern about this teams future at d is non-existent. Any one of the fifty billion dmen we've drafted will eventually replace Shatty just fine. I'm not concerned about goal, present or long term. Even if Allen proves only adequate as a #1 such goalies have won Cups before. Look at Chris Os-not so-good, Marc Andre Fleury, Corey Crawford and Antii Niemi. My concern is a lack of offensive firepower beyond components of the top two lines... Tarasenko, Fabbri, Schwartz and Steen. We need to get more offense. Our defense plus Dallas' offense plus adequate tending is a surefire Cup. The problem with Armstrong has always been meeting the wrong needs. We didn't need Bouwmeester but he got him anyway. We didn't need Miller and certainly not Ott but he got them anyway. We need supplementary scoring. Otherwise this team will never win in the playoffs.

I wish Armstrong had found a way to sweeten the pot enough to land Hall. I know Chiarelli really wanted assurances that Shattenkirk would stay long term but I just cannot get over the fact that the Devils more or less fleeced the Oilers into acquiring one of the top scoring left wingers in the entire league and we couldn't put something better together that he'd bite on.

If we're talking about acquiring Taylor Hall I think Pietrangelo is about the only guy back there I wouldn't consider trading for him straight up or as part of a packaged deal.

But I agree with you whole heartedly. With Backes and Brouwer departing we lost about 40 goals for next season. That's going to have to be made up somewhere. Tarasenko can't do it all by himself. If this team is truly done making deals or signings that's putting a LOT of pressure on the other top 5 forwards to really get their butts in gear.

Schwartz and Fabbri can improve their output but the rest of the bunch? Stastny could/should be putting in 20 a year so that takes us down to 30. But I fear the rest have just about hit their ceilings as far as what production we're going to get out of them. Even with a full year from Berglund and some nominal increases from Parayko (if more PP time especially), etc... I just don't see it. It compounds if we deal Shatty and his 14 goals/PP time.

Loaded on defense, goaltending has to just be average, and then scoring... and then scoring... yea.

This team had a hard enough time scoring with Backes and Brouwer in the playoffs. This has been said for years now that the team needs proven playoff scorers and we just let two of them walk away. You're right, Tank can't do it alone and wasn't very effective against the Sharks when we really needed him. Fabbri and Parayko are amazing, but again even with them, we need more offense and Perron ain't going to cut it.

Without an improved replacement for either Backes or Brouwer, goaltending will need to be dynamite or you won't make it out of the first round or make the playoffs. Jake Allen is not a playoff proven netminder on any level of his career and the goaltender who netminded us through all of the winning playoff series we have had in the last five years we let walk for less than nothing when we could have kept him and let him walk for the same; it would have amounted to the same thing, all because we wouldn't start him. The rest of the league must be looking at us like idiots right now, and we absolutely are.

Now wasn't the time to worry about the future, now was the time to load up on OFFENSE, make minor adjustments and win the Cup. Jake Allen could have started next year, there was no reason not to make Ells the starter. Our netminding pool is one of the deepest in the league and with Husso, Bings and Copley and God knows who else in the pipeline, Allen is an afterthought.

The funny part is, we are spending more of goaltending losing Ells and not getting anything of realiable value out of it, will sign Perron, but will whine if we paid someone like Backes. I don't think Backes should be Captain, I've said that for years, but this organization really believes David Perron is going to replace his output? If I played for this team, I'd get out too after this crazy nonsensical roller coaster ride they've had everyone on, or do like Schwartz and go Arbitration, get as much money as I can and cut down the road if things continue like this. And if history has taught us anything, dear Blues fans, is that this nonsense will continue, even with a fan of the team as owner. Sad.

[gaijin]

My concern about this teams future at d is non-existent. Any one of the fifty billion dmen we've drafted will eventually replace Shatty just fine. I'm not concerned about goal, present or long term. Even if Allen proves only adequate as a #1 such goalies have won Cups before. Look at Chris Os-not so-good, Marc Andre Fleury, Corey Crawford and Antii Niemi. My concern is a lack of offensive firepower beyond components of the top two lines... Tarasenko, Fabbri, Schwartz and Steen. We need to get more offense. Our defense plus Dallas' offense plus adequate tending is a surefire Cup. The problem with Armstrong has always been meeting the wrong needs. We didn't need Bouwmeester but he got him anyway. We didn't need Miller and certainly not Ott but he got them anyway. We need supplementary scoring. Otherwise this team will never win in the playoffs.

I wish Armstrong had found a way to sweeten the pot enough to land Hall. I know Chiarelli really wanted assurances that Shattenkirk would stay long term but I just cannot get over the fact that the Devils more or less fleeced the Oilers into acquiring one of the top scoring left wingers in the entire league and we couldn't put something better together that he'd bite on.

But I agree with you whole heartedly. With Backes and Brouwer departing we lost about 40 goals for next season. That's going to have to be made up somewhere. Tarasenko can't do it all by himself. If this team is truly done making deals or signings that's putting a LOT of pressure on the other top 5 forwards to really get their butts in gear.

Schwartz and Fabbri can improve their output but the rest of the bunch? Stastny could/should be putting in 20 a year so that takes us down to 30. But I fear the rest have just about hit their ceilings as far as what production we're going to get out of them. Even with a full year from Berglund and some nominal increases from Parayko (if more PP time especially), etc... I just don't see it. It compounds if we deal Shatty and his 14 goals/PP time.

Loaded on defense, goaltending has to just be average, and then scoring... and then scoring... yea.

This team had a hard enough time scoring with Backes and Brouwer in the playoffs. This has been said for years now that the team needs proven playoff scorers and we just let two of them walk away. You're right, Tank can't do it alone and wasn't very effective against the Sharks when we really needed him. Fabbri and Parayko are amazing, but again even with them, we need more offense and Perron ain't going to cut it.

Offense has been our problem for several years. Hall would have been a huge pickup, and probably exactly what we needed. While Tank's goals have gone up steadily (21 to 37 to 40), it seems everyone else's have gone down- Backes (gone now), Steen (from 33 to 24 to 17), Stastny (25 to 16 to 10), Perron (28 to 17 to 12), Schwartz (25 to 28 to 8 due to injury), Berglund (are you kidding me?). Fabbri was a bright spot with 18 as a rookie, but it's not a large enough sample size to say he is the fix.

Counting on other guys to "step it up" is not a reliable strategy for building a Cup winner. Remember, this is the Blues we're talking about.

[ecbm]

Steen (from 33 to 24 to 17)

Yeah, this. Steen has a great all-around game but I don't have the deep love for him most Blues fans seem to...he had one great season, got paid and his been ok since then. I won't be surprised if Sobotka has very comparable production next season despite Steen being eternally on the PP unit. As much as people rag on Stastny I'd say Steen is in the same "need to find another level next season" group along with him.

Again, all these obvious and lingering problems with scoring are due in part to Armstrong's bad contracts. The Blues could have at least been in the mix for Stamkos or any UFA if they didn't have Bouwmeester, Lehtera and Berglund around their necks. And now he's given Allen $4.35M per for four seasons based on...

I do think Fabbri will easily top 20 next season-he averaged 13 minutes a game in 15-16. Hitch won't have the personnel to pull that this time around.

[theohall]

At work now, but I am going to pull up points/game, goals/game, assists/game stuff, so instead of looking at entire season's as a single unit, actually see what a player's value is per game. Steen's overall numbers "per game" are pretty darn consistent - and that's with him shifting from LW to C whenever it suited Hitchcock this past season, vice just playing LW.

Real quick note - the Blues scored 20 fewer goals (219 down from 239) this season than last. Just taking into account the injuries to Schwartz, Steen, and Stastny while looking at goals/game - 28 goals were lost due to injury - not guys suddenly not playing as well. And this is only counting these three player's injuries.

[WaukeeBlues]

Well look at our line combinations now. I think you almost HAVE to make Berglund your third line center because I don't know who the hell else is going to play it...

STL

Fabbri-Stastny-Steen

Perron-Berglund-Jaskin(?)

Upshall-Reaves-Brodziak-Paajarvi

Our top two wingers and our 4th line is about the only thing that's settled in this lineup.

This team doesn't have a #1 NHL center so Lehtera or Stastny are going to have to keep faking it unless Armstrong makes a drastic move which I think he still has to.

I change my opinion from earlier when I said that the Blues didn't have to trade Shattenkirk this offseason...

[evil roy]

.


This team had a hard enough time scoring with Backes and Brouwer in the playoffs. This has been said for years now that the team needs proven playoff scorers and we just let two of them walk away. You're right, Tank can't do it alone and wasn't very effective against the Sharks when we really needed him. Fabbri and Parayko are amazing, but again even with them, we need more offense and Perron ain't going to cut it.

Without an improved replacement for either Backes or Brouwer, goaltending will need to be dynamite or you won't make it out of the first round or make the playoffs. Jake Allen is not a playoff proven netminder on any level of his career and the goaltender who netminded us through all of the winning playoff series we have had in the last five years we let walk for less than nothing when we could have kept him and let him walk for the same; it would have amounted to the same thing, all because we wouldn't start him. The rest of the league must be looking at us like idiots right now, and we absolutely are.

Now wasn't the time to worry about the future, now was the time to load up on OFFENSE, make minor adjustments and win the Cup. Jake Allen could have started next year, there was no reason not to make Ells the starter. Our netminding pool is one of the deepest in the league and with Husso, Bings and Copley and God knows who else in the pipeline, Allen is an afterthought.

The funny part is, we are spending more of goaltending losing Ells and not getting anything of realiable value out of it, will sign Perron, but will whine if we paid someone like Backes. I don't think Backes should be Captain, I've said that for years, but this organization really believes David Perron is going to replace his output? If I played for this team, I'd get out too after this crazy nonsensical roller coaster ride they've had everyone on, or do like Schwartz and go Arbitration, get as much money as I can and cut down the road if things continue like this. And if history has taught us anything, dear Blues fans, is that this nonsense will continue, even with a fan of the team as owner. Sad.

Every word of this is true. When you look at each move on its own you can rationalize all of it away, but taken as a whole it really seems that the overall strategy here is flawed (if it exists at all). Nothing will ever make me like the way Elliott was treated here and most if not all of the shit we're all bitching about is a direct result of either bad contacts or mismanagement of players. I mean to come as close as we did only to ship out our star (and grossly underpaid) goalie, our captain and top playoff performer, another solid performer (Brouwer) and two veteran assistant coaches and then to openly shop our only true offensive d man (who is under contract for another year) is absolutely unfathomable. I've seen far fewer moves from teams having "fire sales".

[Robb_K]

My concern about this teams future at d is non-existent. Any one of the fifty billion dmen we've drafted will eventually replace Shatty just fine. I'm not concerned about goal, present or long term. Even if Allen proves only adequate as a #1 such goalies have won Cups before. Look at Chris Os-not so-good, Marc Andre Fleury, Corey Crawford and Antii Niemi. My concern is a lack of offensive firepower beyond components of the top two lines... Tarasenko, Fabbri, Schwartz and Steen. We need to get more offense. Our defense plus Dallas' offense plus adequate tending is a surefire Cup. The problem with Armstrong has always been meeting the wrong needs. We didn't need Bouwmeester but he got him anyway. We didn't need Miller and certainly not Ott but he got them anyway. We need supplementary scoring. Otherwise this team will never win in the playoffs.

I wish Armstrong had found a way to sweeten the pot enough to land Hall. I know Chiarelli really wanted assurances that Shattenkirk would stay long term but I just cannot get over the fact that the Devils more or less fleeced the Oilers into acquiring one of the top scoring left wingers in the entire league and we couldn't put something better together that he'd bite on.

But I agree with you whole heartedly. With Backes and Brouwer departing we lost about 40 goals for next season. That's going to have to be made up somewhere. Tarasenko can't do it all by himself. If this team is truly done making deals or signings that's putting a LOT of pressure on the other top 5 forwards to really get their butts in gear.

Schwartz and Fabbri can improve their output but the rest of the bunch? Stastny could/should be putting in 20 a year so that takes us down to 30. But I fear the rest have just about hit their ceilings as far as what production we're going to get out of them. Even with a full year from Berglund and some nominal increases from Parayko (if more PP time especially), etc... I just don't see it. It compounds if we deal Shatty and his 14 goals/PP time.

Loaded on defense, goaltending has to just be average, and then scoring... and then scoring... yea.

This team had a hard enough time scoring with Backes and Brouwer in the playoffs. This has been said for years now that the team needs proven playoff scorers and we just let two of them walk away. You're right, Tank can't do it alone and wasn't very effective against the Sharks when we really needed him. Fabbri and Parayko are amazing, but again even with them, we need more offense and Perron ain't going to cut it.

Offense has been our problem for several years. Hall would have been a huge pickup, and probably exactly what we needed. While Tank's goals have gone up steadily (21 to 37 to 40), it seems everyone else's have gone down- Backes (gone now), Steen (from 33 to 24 to 17), Stastny (25 to 16 to 10), Perron (28 to 17 to 12), Schwartz (25 to 28 to 8 due to injury), Berglund (are you kidding me?). Fabbri was a bright spot with 18 as a rookie, but it's not a large enough sample size to say he is the fix.

Counting on other guys to "step it up" is not a reliable strategy for building a Cup winner. Remember, this is the Blues we're talking about.

Very true! But Army had absolute zero chance of getting Hall, as Shattenkirk would never, under any conditions, sign a contract extension to stay in Edmonton. So, how can we blame Army for failing to grab Hall? Can we blame him for not engineering a 3-team trade?

[Robb_K]

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