GDT #41: 1/7/17 | 7:00 PM CST | vs Bruins | NBCSN/KMOX

Discuss the St. Louis Blues, the NHL, or anything hockey. (Formerly the Blues News Forum)

Moderator: LGB Mods

User avatar
gaijin
Hall Of Fame
Hall Of Fame
Posts: 4820
Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2003 7:46 pm
Location: Peterson AFB, CO

Re: GDT #41: 1/7/16 | 7:00 PM CST | vs Bruins | NBCSN/KMOX

Post by gaijin »

glen a richter wrote:I will be the first to admit anytime I'm wrong and dang if I wasn't wrong on Jake Allen. Maybe he'll turn it around but if this team wins the Cup with him in net it'll be more like an Osgood or a Fleury "winning in spite of the goalie" situation.

At this point, I'm thinking if they really have the intention of trading Shattenkirk at or around the deadline, forget prospects or any of that nonsense and get a goalie. We can't wait around for the next few years to see if Husso gets it together and becomes what he should hopefully become. When this team didn't need a veteran netminder, they went out and got one (Miller) anyway. Now this team does need a veteran netminder and lord knows they won't go out and get one.

I'm still not clamoring for Elliott, he has proven that he's not a #1 anymore than Allen has. Neither seems to be anything better than a 1A/1B which is not what this team needs.
Don't close the book on Jake just yet. Like you said, he can turn it around, and I imagine he will sooner rather than later. Maybe not to the point of posting shutouts every night, but if he rights the ship he will still be a serviceable starting goalie. He's just in a rough patch right now. Every goalie has that.

The difference is, while Elliott was there in the past to push him out of a funk (and vice versa), I'm not sure Hutton can provide that same push.
Image

User avatar
Oaklandblue
All-Star
All-Star
Posts: 1423
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2011 11:20 pm

Re: GDT #41: 1/7/16 | 7:00 PM CST | vs Bruins | NBCSN/KMOX

Post by Oaklandblue »

You idiots decided that a choice HAD to be made.

Together, Ells and Allen were the two headed goalie monster we desperately needed. Calgary made Ells a Starter and has him riding pine. We could have done the exact same thing here and saved money, but thanks to people believing Jake Allen is a Starter (He is NOT, then again so isn't Elliott) and now you got a backup who has crap behind him and the funniest part is, yall are paying iirc twice the amount you were paying for Elliott and Allen. Should have kept the core together, but no, we HAD to make a choice? Just came back from the WCF, you'd THINK we would have kept the core together and built FROM it, not tear it apart. Like alot of the fans, a demand was made for immediate change through snap decisions with no forward thinking. Same kind of nonsense that has players like Lehtera on the dumb contract he is on and signing Yeo.

You basically signed Allen for the same kind of contract that Halak has; teams would like to have him in a role but simply can't afford the contract for his stats. Allen is 26. If he was going to show real signs of improvement, now would have been the time. He was given the opportunity and like all other opportunities he is given -alone-, he has fallen apart. Check the Blues numbers on opportunities they give the opposing teams on shots on goal, 'danger' areas and such. The system works for defense and has us in the top 10; this team just doesn't provide offense. Jake Allen doesn't have pressure to crumble under, but that's his MO and he is crumbling under it to the point where his stats and Ells stats, which are RISING at a phenomenal rate, is crumbling under the pressure.

While everything is not his fault, his play has been poor on a level that would have the backup in goal, and yes it's happen to Elliott at times, but at that point we had a goaltender we could turn to who could HELP carry the load. Allen can't carry it alone.

He will never, ever be a Starter and the longer yall delude yourselves with the fantasy of him being a Starter, the longer this will continue.

But this management is too high on the horse to admit they're wrong and get Elliott back and this management has mismanaged the contracts to the point that we can't afford a Starter without giving up more vital assets that we can't afford to lose.

Good work, guys.
2017-2018 LGB Sponsor of Alexander Steen
2017-2018 LGB Sponsor of Jaromir Jagr, Calgary Flames
2016-2017 LGB Sponsor of Brian Elliott, Calgary Flames
2015-2016 LGB Sponsor of Ryan "Turn that leaf on the wind into a shrimp on the bar-bee" Reaves
2015-2016 LGB Sponsor of Obviously Not Steve Ott
2015-2016 LGB Sponsor of Steve "Chirps-A-Lot" Ott
2015 LGB Supporter of the New York Rangers
2014-2015 LGB Sponsor of Patrik "No-Timer" Berglund
2013-2014 LGB Sponsor of Derek "In The Middle" Roy
2012-2013 LGB Sponsor of Chris "NO SLEEP TIL THE CUP!" Stewart - Shhhhh!!!

User avatar
Toasted Oates
1st Line Sniper
1st Line Sniper
Posts: 658
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 3:59 pm

Re: GDT #41: 1/7/16 | 7:00 PM CST | vs Bruins | NBCSN/KMOX

Post by Toasted Oates »

^You should change your handle to "Never Wrong."
2016-2017 LGB sponsor of your boy, goaltender Jake Allen and a center for Vladi Tarasenko (UPDATE: FOUND! Ryan O' Reilly. July 1, 2018).
2017-2018 LGB sponsor of a damn fine rearguard, Capt. Alex Pietrangelo.
2018-2019 LGB sponsor of the 2nd greatest Joel in Blues history, #6 Joel "Eddy" Edmundson.

User avatar
Oaklandblue
All-Star
All-Star
Posts: 1423
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2011 11:20 pm

Re: GDT #41: 1/7/16 | 7:00 PM CST | vs Bruins | NBCSN/KMOX

Post by Oaklandblue »

Toasted Oates wrote:^You should change your handle to "Never Wrong."
Haters gunna hate :).
Image
2017-2018 LGB Sponsor of Alexander Steen
2017-2018 LGB Sponsor of Jaromir Jagr, Calgary Flames
2016-2017 LGB Sponsor of Brian Elliott, Calgary Flames
2015-2016 LGB Sponsor of Ryan "Turn that leaf on the wind into a shrimp on the bar-bee" Reaves
2015-2016 LGB Sponsor of Obviously Not Steve Ott
2015-2016 LGB Sponsor of Steve "Chirps-A-Lot" Ott
2015 LGB Supporter of the New York Rangers
2014-2015 LGB Sponsor of Patrik "No-Timer" Berglund
2013-2014 LGB Sponsor of Derek "In The Middle" Roy
2012-2013 LGB Sponsor of Chris "NO SLEEP TIL THE CUP!" Stewart - Shhhhh!!!

cardsfan04
Hall Of Fame
Hall Of Fame
Posts: 4027
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2010 12:43 am

Re: GDT #41: 1/7/16 | 7:00 PM CST | vs Bruins | NBCSN/KMOX

Post by cardsfan04 »

Oaklandblue wrote:You idiots decided that a choice HAD to be made.

Together, Ells and Allen were the two headed goalie monster we desperately needed. Calgary made Ells a Starter and has him riding pine. We could have done the exact same thing here and saved money, but thanks to people believing Jake Allen is a Starter (He is NOT, then again so isn't Elliott) and now you got a backup who has crap behind him and the funniest part is, yall are paying iirc twice the amount you were paying for Elliott and Allen. Should have kept the core together, but no, we HAD to make a choice? Just came back from the WCF, you'd THINK we would have kept the core together and built FROM it, not tear it apart. Like alot of the fans, a demand was made for immediate change through snap decisions with no forward thinking. Same kind of nonsense that has players like Lehtera on the dumb contract he is on and signing Yeo.

You basically signed Allen for the same kind of contract that Halak has; teams would like to have him in a role but simply can't afford the contract for his stats. Allen is 26. If he was going to show real signs of improvement, now would have been the time. He was given the opportunity and like all other opportunities he is given -alone-, he has fallen apart. Check the Blues numbers on opportunities they give the opposing teams on shots on goal, 'danger' areas and such. The system works for defense and has us in the top 10; this team just doesn't provide offense. Jake Allen doesn't have pressure to crumble under, but that's his MO and he is crumbling under it to the point where his stats and Ells stats, which are RISING at a phenomenal rate, is crumbling under the pressure.

While everything is not his fault, his play has been poor on a level that would have the backup in goal, and yes it's happen to Elliott at times, but at that point we had a goaltender we could turn to who could HELP carry the load. Allen can't carry it alone.

He will never, ever be a Starter and the longer yall delude yourselves with the fantasy of him being a Starter, the longer this will continue.

But this management is too high on the horse to admit they're wrong and get Elliott back and this management has mismanaged the contracts to the point that we can't afford a Starter without giving up more vital assets that we can't afford to lose.

Good work, guys.
I'm not going to say there isn't valid criticism to be had, but I think it's a little early for it and you're oversimplifying it.

When the trade happened I said something along the lines of, "I'd rather have 'Allen + Elliott' than 'Allen + (at the time) random backup + draft pick.'" I still feel that way, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a reasonable calculated gamble. Allen has been bad of late, but I still think he will be better than Elliott when all is said and done. If a decision had to be made, I would have chosen Allen then and I'd still choose Allen now.

As I said, I would have preferred Elliott + Allen. But, Elliott asked for a trade. Sure, they didn't have to honor his request. I'm not sure how it would have played out if they kept him. But, there was a history of problems between Elliott and Hitch, so it also would have been a risk keeping an unhappy player around that didn't want to be here.

It's also a bit early to judge Allen's career I think. He has been bad for ~2 months, give or take. His numbers have also trended down each month this season. That's concerning and I don't have tons of confidence in him at the moment. I think it's too early to write him off though. He's shown where his ceiling is. Maybe he won't get there on any sort of consistent basis. Some players don't. But, it would have been silly to judge him based on this mid-November stats (.914 SV%, 2.33GAA through a ~cherry picked 11-19). It's also kinda silly to say he's garbage based on his horrendous numbers since that point.
2010-2011 Official LGB Sponsor of Kevin Shattenkirk
2016-2017 Official LGB Sponsor of Dmitri Jaskin
2017-2018 Official LGB Sponsor of Jake Allen

User avatar
Oaklandblue
All-Star
All-Star
Posts: 1423
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2011 11:20 pm

Re: GDT #41: 1/7/16 | 7:00 PM CST | vs Bruins | NBCSN/KMOX

Post by Oaklandblue »

cardsfan04 wrote:
Oaklandblue wrote:You idiots decided that a choice HAD to be made.

Together, Ells and Allen were the two headed goalie monster we desperately needed. Calgary made Ells a Starter and has him riding pine. We could have done the exact same thing here and saved money, but thanks to people believing Jake Allen is a Starter (He is NOT, then again so isn't Elliott) and now you got a backup who has crap behind him and the funniest part is, yall are paying iirc twice the amount you were paying for Elliott and Allen. Should have kept the core together, but no, we HAD to make a choice? Just came back from the WCF, you'd THINK we would have kept the core together and built FROM it, not tear it apart. Like alot of the fans, a demand was made for immediate change through snap decisions with no forward thinking. Same kind of nonsense that has players like Lehtera on the dumb contract he is on and signing Yeo.

You basically signed Allen for the same kind of contract that Halak has; teams would like to have him in a role but simply can't afford the contract for his stats. Allen is 26. If he was going to show real signs of improvement, now would have been the time. He was given the opportunity and like all other opportunities he is given -alone-, he has fallen apart. Check the Blues numbers on opportunities they give the opposing teams on shots on goal, 'danger' areas and such. The system works for defense and has us in the top 10; this team just doesn't provide offense. Jake Allen doesn't have pressure to crumble under, but that's his MO and he is crumbling under it to the point where his stats and Ells stats, which are RISING at a phenomenal rate, is crumbling under the pressure.

While everything is not his fault, his play has been poor on a level that would have the backup in goal, and yes it's happen to Elliott at times, but at that point we had a goaltender we could turn to who could HELP carry the load. Allen can't carry it alone.

He will never, ever be a Starter and the longer yall delude yourselves with the fantasy of him being a Starter, the longer this will continue.

But this management is too high on the horse to admit they're wrong and get Elliott back and this management has mismanaged the contracts to the point that we can't afford a Starter without giving up more vital assets that we can't afford to lose.

Good work, guys.
I'm not going to say there isn't valid criticism to be had, but I think it's a little early for it and you're oversimplifying it.

When the trade happened I said something along the lines of, "I'd rather have 'Allen + Elliott' than 'Allen + (at the time) random backup + draft pick.'" I still feel that way, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a reasonable calculated gamble. Allen has been bad of late, but I still think he will be better than Elliott when all is said and done. If a decision had to be made, I would have chosen Allen then and I'd still choose Allen now.

As I said, I would have preferred Elliott + Allen. But, Elliott asked for a trade. Sure, they didn't have to honor his request. I'm not sure how it would have played out if they kept him. But, there was a history of problems between Elliott and Hitch, so it also would have been a risk keeping an unhappy player around that didn't want to be here.

It's also a bit early to judge Allen's career I think. He has been bad for ~2 months, give or take. His numbers have also trended down each month this season. That's concerning and I don't have tons of confidence in him at the moment. I think it's too early to write him off though. He's shown where his ceiling is. Maybe he won't get there on any sort of consistent basis. Some players don't. But, it would have been silly to judge him based on this mid-November stats (.914 SV%, 2.33GAA through a ~cherry picked 11-19). It's also kinda silly to say he's garbage based on his horrendous numbers since that point.
Elliott was signed through this year. It would have costed us nothing to keep him, 'name' him a Starter and if he imploded, Jake takes over. Together they have proved to create a united front that gives us depth for cheap. It would have given Jake the time to work out his game and to see what we got in him. He is 26 and this is about the time netminders 'show' themselves in terms of their abilities. Granted, some show it later than others, but we're in a window and we need to know the guy we got is reliable. Ells proved he was and that when he wasn't, Jake could walk tall with him. Because we wouldn't let Ells be a 'Starter' and switched him out if he sucked like Calgary did, we burned more money on contracts that we should never have done; that money should have gone to upgrading our offense. Imagine if we had Elliott and Allen and Elliott played with his numbers with the Blues, which are really, really great. One year rental. Him + Shatt to a team for an Offensive Center at the TDL to put on the top six line. That would have given us more value than a pick.

Or, we could have extended Ells, bridged Allen and let them rule the pipes for a few years more when the Copley, Husso, etc. would be ready and then deal one or both off for an offensive weapon. Again, better value than just a pick.

In all reality, Allen, like Lehtera, should have been given a bridge contract, made to prove he can be consistent and if he had been, show him the money then. These knee-jerk fear reaction contracts alone should give enough reason to fire Army. The only one that I can kind of side with him on, is Boomer. In hindsight it wasn't great but at the time the guy was made of steel and proven tough.
2017-2018 LGB Sponsor of Alexander Steen
2017-2018 LGB Sponsor of Jaromir Jagr, Calgary Flames
2016-2017 LGB Sponsor of Brian Elliott, Calgary Flames
2015-2016 LGB Sponsor of Ryan "Turn that leaf on the wind into a shrimp on the bar-bee" Reaves
2015-2016 LGB Sponsor of Obviously Not Steve Ott
2015-2016 LGB Sponsor of Steve "Chirps-A-Lot" Ott
2015 LGB Supporter of the New York Rangers
2014-2015 LGB Sponsor of Patrik "No-Timer" Berglund
2013-2014 LGB Sponsor of Derek "In The Middle" Roy
2012-2013 LGB Sponsor of Chris "NO SLEEP TIL THE CUP!" Stewart - Shhhhh!!!

User avatar
Toasted Oates
1st Line Sniper
1st Line Sniper
Posts: 658
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 3:59 pm

Re: GDT #41: 1/7/16 | 7:00 PM CST | vs Bruins | NBCSN/KMOX

Post by Toasted Oates »

How much money is tied up in your fantasy contracts, Never Wrong?
2016-2017 LGB sponsor of your boy, goaltender Jake Allen and a center for Vladi Tarasenko (UPDATE: FOUND! Ryan O' Reilly. July 1, 2018).
2017-2018 LGB sponsor of a damn fine rearguard, Capt. Alex Pietrangelo.
2018-2019 LGB sponsor of the 2nd greatest Joel in Blues history, #6 Joel "Eddy" Edmundson.

User avatar
Oaklandblue
All-Star
All-Star
Posts: 1423
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2011 11:20 pm

Re: GDT #41: 1/7/16 | 7:00 PM CST | vs Bruins | NBCSN/KMOX

Post by Oaklandblue »

Toasted Oates wrote:How much money is tied up in your fantasy contracts, Never Wrong?
Being disrespectful gets you nowhere with me. You don't like my opinion, fine, but if you're going to degrade yourself down to name calling and can't even take the time to read the post without being childish, that's on you.

I will however take this time to apologize to the forum for calling everyone idiots. It was a kneejerk response to how poorly the team has played lately and how it seems like we traded/let walk pieces that seemed to help keep things together. Sometimes our passions can get over our heads. The victory last night doesn't say much, but hopefully it's the start of something better -- with Hutton in goal.
2017-2018 LGB Sponsor of Alexander Steen
2017-2018 LGB Sponsor of Jaromir Jagr, Calgary Flames
2016-2017 LGB Sponsor of Brian Elliott, Calgary Flames
2015-2016 LGB Sponsor of Ryan "Turn that leaf on the wind into a shrimp on the bar-bee" Reaves
2015-2016 LGB Sponsor of Obviously Not Steve Ott
2015-2016 LGB Sponsor of Steve "Chirps-A-Lot" Ott
2015 LGB Supporter of the New York Rangers
2014-2015 LGB Sponsor of Patrik "No-Timer" Berglund
2013-2014 LGB Sponsor of Derek "In The Middle" Roy
2012-2013 LGB Sponsor of Chris "NO SLEEP TIL THE CUP!" Stewart - Shhhhh!!!

User avatar
Toasted Oates
1st Line Sniper
1st Line Sniper
Posts: 658
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 3:59 pm

GDT #41: 1/7/16 | 7:00 PM CST | vs Bruins | NBCSN/KMOX

Post by Toasted Oates »

Nah, I read it. That's why I ask, if you "extend" Elliott and "bridge" Allen how much money are we talking about here? It's just more complicated than you make it out to be. We don't disagree on Lehtera's cap hit and its constraints on paying other guys but it's still there.

Your 2nd scenario also works on the assumption you could package Elliott and Shatty together as a pair of pending UFAs. That would also be more complicated than you're making it out to be.

And hey...if you're gonna taunt with Kermit, the tea, "haters gonna hate," "you idiots," you have to expect a little jab back. So far, you've been right about the tending but we'll see how it shakes out.
2016-2017 LGB sponsor of your boy, goaltender Jake Allen and a center for Vladi Tarasenko (UPDATE: FOUND! Ryan O' Reilly. July 1, 2018).
2017-2018 LGB sponsor of a damn fine rearguard, Capt. Alex Pietrangelo.
2018-2019 LGB sponsor of the 2nd greatest Joel in Blues history, #6 Joel "Eddy" Edmundson.

Post Reply