UPDATE PT.2: Kovalchuk (NHL VOIDS CONTRACT W/NJ)

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Re: Forget Kovalchuk

Post by DaDitka »

cprice12 wrote:
DaDitka wrote:
cprice12 wrote:
philco_3 wrote:http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=326655

7yrs 60 million
$8.57 million per.
Probably slightly overpaid, but not by a ton.
I was figuring he was worth about $8 million per.
I think to put it in perspective....

What if we bring in Frolov at about 4.5 mill a year......and we could have had Kovalchuck for only 4 mill more a year.

Or the fact that he's only making 4 mill more a year then Eric Brewer. :doh:

That said, he turned down much 'larger' offers, so there is no way to know he would have taken a similar deal from us.
"Only" $4 million more?
That's quite a bit more.
If Frolov played to his potential, I think he'd be a better value than Kovalchuk...but I wouldn't want him at $4.5 million since he doesn't play to his potential.

Kings fans will tell you he is lazy and takes nights off, which would explain Frolov's point totals decreasing each of the last 4 years.

If we could get him for $3.25-$3.75 million for 3-4 years, I'd do that...but anything more...I dunno if I want to risk quite that much on him rebounding.

Frolov is one of those guys whom if you can get him cheap, would be a low-risk, very high-reward type of thing. Plus, he's only 28 years old...so you could argue that the next few years should be his best.
I guess when I see us wasting 4+ a year on guys like Brewer & Jackman, it just doesn't seem like a large amount of 'additional' money for a true difference maker. I know of Frolov's 'laziness', I was merely drawing a comparison because so many fans of talked of wanting him. And based on Lombardi's contract, I figured Frolov will be between 4 and 4.5 a year because of what he had done in 07-08 and 08-09.

I don't really care how they spent the money, I just that while many are happy to see Paulie and Walt go (myself included) that's 31 gaols we have to make up on top of needing another 25 or so goals next year....I haven't seen any moves that help us in the direction yet.

Not resigning Carlo would have only set us further back off that mark.
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Re: Forget Kovalchuk

Post by Leedog »

Janssen for Elias. Only half joking. If they sign Kovy and need to dump money, they may want someone very cheap to fill out the roster. You ain't gonna get much cheaper than the $600K he just signed for.
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Re: Forget Kovalchuk

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WaukeeBlues wrote:It appears obvious to me that whatever offensive moves Army is planning, they aren't going to be substantial, unless we come out of nowhere in the Gagne sweepstakes.

I'm quite frustrated. Last season's offense obviously didn't get it done, and we've only lost players (e.g. Kariya and Tkachuk). Is management hoping last year was a fluke and/or just increasing playing time will get it done?

:?
In no way did I ever think this off-season would allow for the Blues to be big spenders. Half their team is RFA'd. And these are the players they have been patiently telling us will be the heart of the team for years. The rest of them are due for new contracts next year. They need to figure out what they've got and how much it will cost to keep them (and thus how much they have left to spend) before they can be big players in the FA market. Its really not worth rushing that. Chicago did it, won the cup, but just traded half their roster. And, aside from keeping the players they've got, does anybody realize that their two first round draft picks this year are higher draft picks/more highly rated than Berglund, Oshie, Perron, and Eller were when they were all drafted? Think how excited we were for them? We have two more forward prospects now, both of whom we have every reason to believe will be just as good if not better than the previously mentioned roster players (not to mention, Tarasenko could have franchise potential). The Blues need to avoid spending a ton now so we can keep these guys signed later.

It's not like the Blues are as awful as so many people make them out to be here. The Blues were very close to the playoffs this year despite having whats universally considered a disappointing year. What if they just have an average year? Then they are a playoff team. If they have an above average year? Then they go from a fringe playoff team to one that could advance at least through a first round series, probably more.

They didn't address scoring (yet), but they did go out and get the potential franchise goaltender. They've made some solid under the radar moves in Hensick and Sobotka. Who knows whats left... I would love to get a decent defenseman who can make a good first pass out of the zone to replace a Brewer or a Jackman... but after that I am more than happy to continue to watch this team grow.

Also, missing Tkachuk and Kariya is now all of the sudden a tragedy? Weren't we all ready to see them go? I can't see this team doing worse than the 90 points it just put up. I can only see it doing better, even if only by 5-8 points or so, because I have to believe the number of players who were disappointing have to be better.

Be smart about the cap now and we don't have to regret it later, when the core of players we have developed are actually ready to carry the team.
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Re: Forget Kovalchuk

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I understand all that- I really do. I don't disagree necessarily and I've been as patient as anyone watching these guys grow. But as you said yourself- Berglund, Perron, Oshie, etc AREN'T top 3 picks that are projected to be consistent threats offensively. Perron, imo, the only serious exception. The fact remains we have 31 goals (PK + KT) to make up on a roster that had to rely on a breakout, totally unexpected year from Alex Steen to lead the team in scoring.

If that's not concering, please tell me what is. And you're right, we got more guys in the wings, so where's the tragedy in possibly dealing these guys for scoring? Granted, the Halak trade was a great move and addressed (I hope) a pressing need. But we still need to score goals from an offensive system that isn't getting any help from the defense for a chip-in here and there. So going back to my original question, the answer seems to be that management is hoping last year was just a fluke for Boyes and Backes, just to name two. I'm not comfortable with that.

By all present appearances, we are, once again, entering the season with fundamentally the same roster as the year before. When it starts working I'll withold my skepticism, but it hasn't yet. Hopefully with more ice time for the top 6 we'll see more goals and I hope so.

I know the Blues were the best team to not make the playoffs. That fact is not lost on me. Even if it wasn't spending money, I expected more movement than this though. We'll see. Hopefully the bottom first round picks start playing like top first round picks.
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Re: Forget Kovalchuk

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WaukeeBlues wrote:I know the Blues were the best team to not make the playoffs. That fact is not lost on me. Even if it wasn't spending money, I expected more movement than this though. We'll see. Hopefully the bottom first round picks start playing like top first round picks.
Oh, we're seeing a movement alright. A straight up #2 if you ask me.
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Re: Forget Kovalchuk

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richtedm wrote: Also, missing Tkachuk and Kariya is now all of the sudden a tragedy? Weren't we all ready to see them go?

Yes, we wanted to see them go because we thought more could be done with their ice time. That said, if Walt's pp time goes to Winchester as the team suggests, that's not an improvement.

The fact is we have to replace the 31 goals those two scored last year (and still get even more goals).
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Re: Forget Kovalchuk

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DaDitka wrote:
richtedm wrote: Also, missing Tkachuk and Kariya is now all of the sudden a tragedy? Weren't we all ready to see them go?

Yes, we wanted to see them go because we thought more could be done with their ice time. That said, if Walt's pp time goes to Winchester as the team suggests, that's not an improvement.

The fact is we have to replace the 31 goals those two scored last year (and still get even more goals).
It's not ridiculous to think that Perron, Oshie, Berglund, Backes, EJ can/will improve or keep improving and replace some of that scoring.
But it would be nice to replace that scoring and then any improvement in the goal category from our younger players would be that much better.
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Re: Forget Kovalchuk

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cprice12 wrote:
DaDitka wrote:
richtedm wrote: Also, missing Tkachuk and Kariya is now all of the sudden a tragedy? Weren't we all ready to see them go?

Yes, we wanted to see them go because we thought more could be done with their ice time. That said, if Walt's pp time goes to Winchester as the team suggests, that's not an improvement.

The fact is we have to replace the 31 goals those two scored last year (and still get even more goals).
It's not ridiculous to think that Perron, Oshie, Berglund, Backes, EJ can/will improve or keep improving and replace some of that scoring.
But it would be nice to replace that scoring and then any improvement in the goal category from our younger players would be that much better.
Exactly my point. The improvement from the kids is the 'additional' scoring you need. You need those goals anyways.
Now you also have an additional 31 goals you need to replace. No matter how you want to look at it, you weren't a playoff team last year and finished 17th in goals scored. You have to be better this year.

Hopefully DP and TJ will score more, Bergie HAS to score more, Backes can probably net a few more (but that 31 goal season was an abortion), but you also have to know that some are going to underachieve (look at how Boyes, Backes, and Winchester all dropped off by 10 goals or more). Consider Stein, Oshie, EJ and Perron all had career highs and McDonald had his highest goal total in 4 season, there are plenty of candidates for a drop off just as likely as candidates for improvement.

I figure the highs will exceed the lows and the remaining players should outscore their production from last year by lets say 25 total goals. That still leaves you 6 shy of the team's total last year which was only good for 17th. I just think we still need a top six forward we can pencil in for 20.

Of course, simply getting rid of Jackman and his turnovers would allow for better outlet passes and could boost production by 5 or 10 goals IMO.
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Re: Forget Kovalchuk

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Just for more discussion, the Bobby Ryan situation in Anaheim is leading many to believe he is the best offer sheet target. The GM called him out for rejecting a deal and even reported what the numbers he turned down were (5yr/25million). This "probably" :lol: goes under the category of way too much to give up. Word is he wants near 6mil/year- at that price and as a group 2 RFA, we'd forfeit quite a lot of draft picks. In 2009, the compensation was as follows:

Offered Compensation
Over $4,520,150 to $6,026,867 First-round, second-round and third-round choice
Over $6,026,867 to $7,533,584 Two first-round choices, one second- and one third-round choice
Over $7,533,584 Four first-round choices

He fits the St. Louis Blues prototype player of big, tough and American and people feel he is close to becoming a superstar. He is 23 years old. People have different views on the Blues drafting prowess, so is the potential loss of at least a 1st, 2nd and 3rd worth signing a player like Ryan? I think no.
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Re: Forget Kovalchuk

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BoxCar wrote:Just for more discussion, the Bobby Ryan situation in Anaheim is leading many to believe he is the best offer sheet target. The GM called him out for rejecting a deal and even reported what the numbers he turned down were (5yr/25million). This "probably" :lol: goes under the category of way too much to give up. Word is he wants near 6mil/year- at that price and as a group 2 RFA, we'd forfeit quite a lot of draft picks. In 2009, the compensation was as follows:

Offered Compensation
Over $4,520,150 to $6,026,867 First-round, second-round and third-round choice
Over $6,026,867 to $7,533,584 Two first-round choices, one second- and one third-round choice
Over $7,533,584 Four first-round choices

He fits the St. Louis Blues prototype player of big, tough and American and people feel he is close to becoming a superstar. He is 23 years old. People have different views on the Blues drafting prowess, so is the potential loss of at least a 1st, 2nd and 3rd worth signing a player like Ryan? I think no.
It goes back to willingness to pay though. As someone else pointed out in another thread I think, we lost a significant part of ownership this year and I doubt they'd be considering a move of that magnitude.

As far as I'm concerned, management is done this summer and has made the moves they are going to make, good or bad.

Having said that, if ownership was in a spending mood and we had the space, HELL YES I would throw an offer sheet of $6 mill at Ryan. And the 3 draft picks are about what you would give up on a trade-deadline-esque trade anyway. Even if it meant an inability to sign one or two or even three of our young guys in the future with a new $6 mill contract on the books, I think you're right, he's going to be a stud and is worth it.
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Re: Forget Kovalchuk

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WaukeeBlues wrote:
BoxCar wrote: Over $4,520,150 to $6,026,867 => First-round, second-round and third-round choice
HELL YES I would throw an offer sheet of $6 mill at Ryan.
I wonder, how much money would the Blues save by not having to really invest a full year of salaries/traval cost for their prospect scouting staff? It defeats the purpose of having them if you don't pick until round 4.
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Re: Forget Kovalchuk

Post by Winning Unlimited »

Just adding some stories for all you friends...

From TSN: KIngs re-enter talks with Kovy
http://tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=326865

Code: Select all

The Ilya Kovalchuk  saga has taken another interesting turn.

Days after a report surfaced that the free agent winger was on the verge of signing a seven-year, $60 million contract with the New Jersey Devils comes a report Wednesday in the Los Angeles Times that quotes Kings general manager Dean Lombardi as saying that his team has "re-engaged" in negotiations.

According to the Times, the Kings are expecting a counter-proposal from the winger sometime on Wednesday.

The Kings publically broke off talks with Kovalchuk on Sunday after reportedly making more than one offer without ever receiving a counter offer.
and then there was the blog that Kovy is about to sign with the KHL for $9M/y.

http://blogs.northjersey.com/blogs/fire ... etersburg/
Russia’s Sport Express reports in the English-translated version of its website that left wing Ilya Kovalchuk is supposedly on the verge of signing with SKA St. Petersburg of the Kontinental Hockey League.

The report reads, “according to Sport Express information, Ilya Kovalchuk is close to signing a contract with SKA.”

Kovalchuk’s Russia-based agent Yuriy Nikolaev had told Sport Express earlier this week that it was more likely that his client would remain in the NHL, but also confirmed that he was talking to SKA St. Petersburg. Sport Express reported Sunday that Kovalchuk had a four-year, $36 million offer from SKA St. Petersburg and that the 27-year-old sniper was looking for $40 million total for the four years.

(The Russian-version of the story—as translated by Google—said of SKA’s offer “the total amount of the contract including bonuses, could be approximately $40 million.”)

The English Sport Express site report also quoted SKA St. Petersburg general manager Andrey Tochitsky saying that the team was trying to sign goaltender Evgeni Nabokov.

“Nabokov is really one of the candidates to a place of SKA first-choice goalkeeper”, Tochitsky said to Sport Express. “Of course he has other offers from NHL.”

Meanwhile, here in North America, we begin Day 3 of the Kovlachuk watch since his NHLPA-certified agent, Jay Grossman, said he was going to make a decision on his future.

***
Just a reminder, because I am getting so many questions about it, the Devils’ prospects camp begins Monday at Prudential Center.

I don’t have a full list of players that will be there, yet. And there is also no information on whether any part of the camp will be open to the public. Last year, the final scrimmage of the camp was open to the public, but that was not announced until the day before.

Devils general manager Lou Lamoriello has said previously that all of the team’s 2010 draft picks will be at the camp along with Mattias Tedenby, Jacob Josefson and Adam Henrique. There is no word yet on if any of the team’s prospects won’t be there.
Whats the over/under that Kovalchuk signs with a team in July?
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Re: Forget Kovalchuk

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on the 4th period, Army was quoted as saying he's not interested in Kovy.
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Re: Forget Kovalchuk

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Winning Unlimited wrote:
WaukeeBlues wrote:
BoxCar wrote: Over $4,520,150 to $6,026,867 => First-round, second-round and third-round choice
HELL YES I would throw an offer sheet of $6 mill at Ryan.
I wonder, how much money would the Blues save by not having to really invest a full year of salaries/traval cost for their prospect scouting staff? It defeats the purpose of having them if you don't pick until round 4.
Well, you can always tinker around and trade for a higher pick if you feel you really want to grab someone (see: Toronto), but even not counting that- one draft for Bobby Ryan? That's STILL not a bad trade. I think he's going to be BIG and worth passing up one draft for.
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Re: Forget Kovalchuk

Post by glen a richter »

By the way, DaDitka, are you sure that calling Backes' 31 goal season an abortion was quite the word you were looking for?
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Re: Forget Kovalchuk

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on the ESPN ticker, it said the Kings offered Kovy 12 years at $5.25M/year, for $63M total.

I don't care what the Kings' GM said about me to the media. I would have also hung up the phone, and not counteroffered if I was Kovy's agent.
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Re: Forget Kovalchuk

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Winning Unlimited wrote:on the ESPN ticker, it said the Kings offered Kovy 12 years at $5.25M/year, for $63M total.

I don't care what the Kings' GM said about me to the media. I would have also hung up the phone, and not counteroffered if I was Kovy's agent.
Well, let's look at that offer for a second...

Kovy would be making more than $5.25 million per year.
The contract would obviously be front loaded, probably giving him a lot more per season early on, then it would drop off and probably end with the last few years earning quite a bit less.

Maybe something like this:
10, 9, 8, 7, 7, 6, 5, 5, 2, 2, 1, 1

Kovy is 28 years old right now and would probably retire before the end of the contract (which would put him at 40 years old if he played the length of the 12 year contract) and would never earn the $1 million per season over the last couple years.
The cap hit would be $5.25 million, but if Kovy retires after 8 years of the contract, he'd actually be making an average of $7.125 per season and the cap hit would be $5.25 million.

$7.125 average for the next 8 years is a very good offer considering his age.

It would be a big win for the Kings. They would essentially be creating an $1.75 million in cap room by structuring the contract that way.
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Re: Forget Kovalchuk

Post by Winning Unlimited »

Not to be a douche, but Kovalchuk is 27. He could make the money LA would pay him in almost half the time with the NJD.

Forget that, I'm going to douche out. Watch this...

The Kings really should pull a Billy Mays and double the offer!! $126M over 24 years!! :aaaa: Front load the first 12 years with $8M/year, and then the last 12 years at a cool $2.5M/year. Even if he retires, or you buy him out and pay him the money, you could still have him making cold call ticket sales.
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Re: Forget Kovalchuk

Post by glen a richter »

Winning Unlimited wrote:Not to be a douche, but Kovalchuk is 27. He could make the money LA would pay him in almost half the time with the NJD.

Forget that, I'm going to douche out. Watch this...

The Kings really should pull a Billy Mays and tell Kovy to bang his head on the overhead compartment!! $126M over 24 years!! :aaaa: Front load the first 12 years with $8M/year, and then the last 12 years at a cool $2.5M/year. Even if he retires, or you buy him out and pay him the money, you could still have him making cold call ticket sales.
ftfy, too soon?
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Re: Forget Kovalchuk

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glen a richter wrote:By the way, DaDitka, are you sure that calling Backes' 31 goal season an abortion was quite the word you were looking for?


:doh:


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