Put on the cape: Blues GM wants more from Stastny

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Re: Put on the cape: Blues GM wants more from Stastny

Post by ecbm »

Oaklandblue wrote:I think the biggest fear that I can relate to is, if we had canned Army, who would have came in and would they have made the team worse?
Worse than perennial first-round exits? I'd be willing to risk missing the playoffs or-gasp!-not winning the division if it presents the possibility of playoff success.
glen a richter wrote:An owner butting in and not letting the GM do his job? Sounds like George Steinbrenner to me, and we all know what happened to the Yankees in the 80's. It was a freakin' disaster for fuckssake.
Understood but you're wide of the mark if you think all those championships weren't ultimately the product of Steinbrenner's intense desire to win over all else and willingness to do anything for it including cheating and spending stupid amounts of money.
ComradeT wrote:
ecbm wrote:
ComradeT wrote:I don't believe Backes has 30+ goals in him. He just doesn't have the skill. He may have a 30+ season
:?:

Seasons with 31, 31, 27 and 26 while being a premium defensive matchup center suggests to me he can do it.
That doesn't show that he "can" do it in my view, only that he "did" have two (ok, not one, two) barely 30+ seasons. Yes, beauty is in the eye of the beholder but I just can't project consistent 30+ with an occasional 40+ for him for the next few years.

Again, I may be wrong. It's just what I think.
Fair enough, and it's not a crazy opinion. I just think he is capable and even if he doesn't hit a number any of us might have in our heads (35? 31? will 29 work?) I think it's a bit of an unfair standard to say he can't be that guy. There were only 33 players in the NHL who scored more goals than him last season-basically one per team. It'd be awesome to have a #91 for every line but that isn't going to happen.

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Re: Put on the cape: Blues GM wants more from Stastny

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ecbm wrote:
Oaklandblue wrote:I think the biggest fear that I can relate to is, if we had canned Army, who would have came in and would they have made the team worse?
Worse than perennial first-round exits? I'd be willing to risk missing the playoffs or-gasp!-not winning the division if it presents the possibility of playoff success.
glen a richter wrote:An owner butting in and not letting the GM do his job? Sounds like George Steinbrenner to me, and we all know what happened to the Yankees in the 80's. It was a freakin' disaster for fuckssake.
Understood but you're wide of the mark if you think all those championships weren't ultimately the product of Steinbrenner's intense desire to win over all else and willingness to do anything for it including cheating and spending stupid amounts of money.
ComradeT wrote:
ecbm wrote:
ComradeT wrote:I don't believe Backes has 30+ goals in him. He just doesn't have the skill. He may have a 30+ season
:?:

Seasons with 31, 31, 27 and 26 while being a premium defensive matchup center suggests to me he can do it.
That doesn't show that he "can" do it in my view, only that he "did" have two (ok, not one, two) barely 30+ seasons. Yes, beauty is in the eye of the beholder but I just can't project consistent 30+ with an occasional 40+ for him for the next few years.

Again, I may be wrong. It's just what I think.
Fair enough, and it's not a crazy opinion. I just think he is capable and even if he doesn't hit a number any of us might have in our heads (35? 31? will 29 work?) I think it's a bit of an unfair standard to say he can't be that guy. There were only 33 players in the NHL who scored more goals than him last season-basically one per team. It'd be awesome to have a #91 for every line but that isn't going to happen.
Yeah, you're probably right. What shocked me is that both Kane and Toews only had 27 and 28 goals each. Granted Kane was injured and he would've had more than 30 but still. Kind of points to that it's about more than just certain players scoring goals. And really boils down to what you do in the post-season vs. regular season. And that's where Blues come up short, as has been discussed ad nauseam.
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Re: Put on the cape: Blues GM wants more from Stastny

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It's also far more of a two way game than at any point before in NHL history. This isn't the Pavel Bure era where you can tap a guy on the back and simply tell him to "go score 50" and it happens.

Today's top players on any team HAVE to be able to play both sides of the ice. We're not going to see many more 50 goal seasons or if ever see another 60 goal season. The league is just too far for that.

Jamie Benn this year. Scoring title. With what? Wasn't it like 84 points? Lowest point total in decades? The game has changed. Whether it's good or bad can be argued but it has.
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Re: Put on the cape: Blues GM wants more from Stastny

Post by goon attack »

Speaking of speed..... what's the NHL's drug testing policy?

If it's lax, the whole team should take speed before the playoff games. Or at least snort some coke. Maybe they'd win.

I still can't shake the idea that we need to bring up a sociopathic goon or two and deploy them in Game 1 of each series with the specific intention of taking out an opposing player with extreme prejudice. That would really clear the way to victory.

People say violence never solves anything. Ask Hitler and the Nazis about that.

People say drugs are bad. All the great writers in history were totally doped up.

Don't dismiss these plans so easily, gentlemen.
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Re: Put on the cape: Blues GM wants more from Stastny

Post by Oaklandblue »

ecbm wrote:
Oaklandblue wrote:I think the biggest fear that I can relate to is, if we had canned Army, who would have came in and would they have made the team worse?
Worse than perennial first-round exits? I'd be willing to risk missing the playoffs or-gasp!-not winning the division if it presents the possibility of playoff success.
The first step to winning the Cup is making the playoffs. As it stands, we can do that. There have been years where after the team was gutted that they couldn't make the playoffs. We go from might to absolutely not. And while the end of the argument boils down to did you win it or not, you sure won't win it if you can't at least complete Step 1 even if it's in the last wildcard spot.

I'd rather the org sits down and tries to graph out why everything post-regular season ends up on a slope on a graph that ends up a mess on the floor below the easel it's on. Answers to that will determine what needs to be done to take the next step. After four years of Hitch with a fifth year coming up, graphing up that answer should be easy.

The next step should be to fix it. Maybe Stillman and Army really are working behind the scenes and making the team purposely look lost to try and score up some players that are seen to have some potential who can take us to the next step. I don't really know, but at least we can make the playoffs, so Step 1 is complete. Now we need Step 2 :)
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Re: Put on the cape: Blues GM wants more from Stastny

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Oaklandblue wrote:The first step to winning the Cup is making the playoffs. As it stands, we can do that.
I don't doubt that. The problem that causes is what we see now: a team so terrified of not making the playoffs, they won't make changes that might allow them to win in the playoffs. Yet every group of players who may be able to win together have a window, which will shut. If you stand still in a competition as intense as the NHL, you will be passed. Fortune favors the bold who do bold things like lock up their two franchise pillars to cap-busting contracts which forces them to give up a top-4 dman for virtually nothing and sign a second line C off the scrap heap. I was among many who raised my eyebrows at that last off-season and yet that team is in the SCF. Again.
Oaklandblue wrote:After four years of Hitch with a fifth year coming up, graphing up that answer should be easy.
Easy, unless it's actually impossible because the changes needed simply will not/can not be implemented by the personnel in place. Guess which way I'm leaning...

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Re: Put on the cape: Blues GM wants more from Stastny

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ecbm wrote:
Oaklandblue wrote:The first step to winning the Cup is making the playoffs. As it stands, we can do that.
I don't doubt that. The problem that causes is what we see now: a team so terrified of not making the playoffs, they won't make changes that might allow them to win in the playoffs. Yet every group of players who may be able to win together have a window, which will shut. If you stand still in a competition as intense as the NHL, you will be passed. Fortune favors the bold who do bold things like lock up their two franchise pillars to cap-busting contracts which forces them to give up a top-4 dman for virtually nothing and sign a second line C off the scrap heap. I was among many who raised my eyebrows at that last off-season and yet that team is in the SCF. Again.

And thats why I think the old core needs to be broken up a bit. They are so use to not being in the playoffs then all the sudden they make it for the past 4 years then they play with caution or maybe its doubt. This young core has a mentality that they know they are getting into the playoffs and they are hungry once they are there, but they sit back in 2nd and third line watching these vets their "mentors" fail. I hope to see a change where our young guys are top line and the C and A's get moved around to reflect a change in the core give our young guys leadership roles let them take the reins.
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Re: Put on the cape: Blues GM wants more from Stastny

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APOD wrote:And thats why I think the old core needs to be broken up a bit.
I don't disagree at this point but given the cap situation around the league, I wonder what's really possible there. I think the best chance to make a significant change to this team's approach this off-season was hiring one of the many premium head coaches available.
APOD wrote:They are so use to not being in the playoffs then all the sudden they make it for the past 4 years then they play with caution or maybe its doubt.
Considering all these guys would have been on successful if not dominant teams for most of their hockey-playing lives, I have trouble believing their relatively short stint on the bad Blues would have inculcated this. How many players are still around from the non-playoff years anyway? Backes, Oshie, Steen, Berglund had 2 non-playoff seasons, Jackman a few more and Shatty was around for half a non-playoff season. I don't think that really explains it.

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Re: Put on the cape: Blues GM wants more from Stastny

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I mentioned this in another thread and I'll re-visit it here. I get that the cap hit is huge, but if the contracts going the other way nullify that, I don't think I'd be against trading for Phil Kessel, whom evidently Toronto is shopping. Yeah he's a bit of a dick headcase and when we were watching the skills competition my wife, who played college hockey and played with NHLer Chris Higgins when they were both in high school, so she knows a thing or two about hockey, referred to him as the out of shape looking fat guy, but you can't argue with the numbers he has and can put up. What you do get is 7 years at an 8 mil hit, which won't be as bad as it seems now just down the road. You can get Stastny going the other way, or Oshie/Backes both. Someone said it in the thread I posted this in originally (Gaijin?) that the problem is that as Blues fans for some reason we want the good guy over the good player. I would take a team full of assholes if it landed a Cup in the hands of the Blues captain.
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Re: Put on the cape: Blues GM wants more from Stastny

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glen a richter wrote:I mentioned this in another thread and I'll re-visit it here. I get that the cap hit is huge, but if the contracts going the other way nullify that, I don't think I'd be against trading for Phil Kessel, whom evidently Toronto is shopping. Yeah he's a bit of a dick headcase and when we were watching the skills competition my wife, who played college hockey and played with NHLer Chris Higgins when they were both in high school, so she knows a thing or two about hockey, referred to him as the out of shape looking fat guy, but you can't argue with the numbers he has and can put up. What you do get is 7 years at an 8 mil hit, which won't be as bad as it seems now just down the road. You can get Stastny going the other way, or Oshie/Backes both. Someone said it in the thread I posted this in originally (Gaijin?) that the problem is that as Blues fans for some reason we want the good guy over the good player. I would take a team full of assholes if it landed a Cup in the hands of the Blues captain.
Yeah, I said that in the other thread. I think it's true for St. Louis fans in general (hockey/baseball/football)- we have a high tolerance for losses/failure if our players show heart and are "good people" (meaning they are active in charity and display good personal character). If a player is a troublemaker, locker room cancer, or has issues with getting on the wrong side of the law, we tend to sour on them quickly and they usually find themselves on a different team the next season. Not saying that's the right way to go, nor is it necessarily the right way to run a sports organization, but I think that's just a characteristic of the city and its fans.

Doing a quick comparison between Stastny and Kessel, Kessel averages 27.4 goals and 30.3 assists per season over his career (.37 goals/game, .41 assists/game), while Stastny averages 19.5 goals and 36.4 assists per season (.29 goals/game, .54 assists/game). Kessel has the decided advantage in goals, but I'm too lazy to look at how their playoff performance compares.

I don't know. While Kessel puts up more goals, I think Stastny's low numbers last season were a result of a different team, different coach, different system. I think his numbers will bounce back, so I'm not ready to ship him off yet. I think he can be a lynchpin for our team for a number of years still. Plus, I don't know if Toronto will want to ditch Kessel now that they have a new coach. They will probably want to hang on to that offensive talent and see what Babcock can do with it.
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Re: Put on the cape: Blues GM wants more from Stastny

Post by ecbm »

I'd have no problem with acquiring Kessel. The Blues could use another legitimate scoring winger. The player I'd really like to have who seems like he could be gotten is Lucic.

I wouldn't trade Stastny now, not only because I think he'll do better than last year and is actually the best natural center on the team but because his value is at its nadir right now. To me, that's what makes the prospect of trading Backes fascinating. He had a very good statistical season. You could get premium return for him. That said, I still like the guy a lot. I just don't know if he's the top line center or the captain this team needs.

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Re: Put on the cape: Blues GM wants more from Stastny

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Los Angeles Kings.

Never giving a flying (Frank) what their playoff seed was with the knowledge that they were a great hockey team and they knew how to play and knew how to win when it mattered.

Nobody gives two tenths of a shit what playoff seed you were if you're playing for the conference title/ Stanley Cup every freakin season.

Chicago Blackhawks.

This team brass disgusts me that they're too afraid of sinking the boat by rocking it. (Franking) change it up. Christ.
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Re: Put on the cape: Blues GM wants more from Stastny

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WaukeeBlues wrote:Los Angeles Kings.

Never giving a flying (Frank) what their playoff seed was with the knowledge that they were a great hockey team and they knew how to play and knew how to win when it mattered.

Nobody gives two tenths of a shit what playoff seed you were if you're playing for the conference title/ Stanley Cup every freakin season.
Exactly. Yet the quote we get from Hitchock when they give him another year is about winning the division and contending for the Conference title and President's Cup. What was missing from this quote? He said absolutely NOTHING about winning in the playoffs. I almost screamed (FRAAAAANNNKKKKK!!!!) really loud at work.

Yes, he talked about having to be faster and speed to compete in the playoffs, but he never really mentions actually winning in the playoffs.
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Re: Put on the cape: Blues GM wants more from Stastny

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WaukeeBlues wrote:This team brass disgusts me that they're too afraid of sinking the boat by rocking it.
To extend the metaphor, it's not that hot a boat anyway. And the NHL won't actually let it actually sink. If something new was tried and it went wrong, so what? Could this team be any worse than it was about a decade ago? And yet here we are, still in the NHL, with the same number of Cups.

:doh:

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Re: Put on the cape: Blues GM wants more from Stastny

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ecbm wrote:
WaukeeBlues wrote:This team brass disgusts me that they're too afraid of sinking the boat by rocking it.
To extend the metaphor, it's not that hot a boat anyway. And the NHL won't actually let it actually sink. If something new was tried and it went wrong, so what? Could this team be any worse than it was about a decade ago? And yet here we are, still in the NHL, with the same number of Cups.

:doh:
Very true.
But to be fair...I'd rather the team be killer in the regular season and fizzle in the playoffs, than to suck balls every year and not even get in the playoffs. Yes, the high draft picks are nice...but we already have a really good team that is still well within it's window of opportunity to succeed. Blowing the team up isn't a smart move. Not yet anyway.

Knock the playoff results all you want...it's easy to do. But this team is still very good and will be among the cup favorites going into next season, barring any drastic moves that screw up the team of course.
They'll tweak some things and come back at it again.

I'm very curious to see what system adjustments they will make since Hitchcock emphasized that the style of play will change. We always complain about the conservative style that Hitchcock employs...well now the focus will be on more speed and generating more scoring chances on the rush. We'll see what player moves they make to cater to that and how it all works out.

And all of this talk about the Blues being afraid to make moves...you guys need to go back and look at the roster from two years ago and compare it to last year. There were a lot of changes/additions made, including our #1 goalie come playoff time...we've had three different ones the past 3 years.
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Re: Put on the cape: Blues GM wants more from Stastny

Post by glen a richter »

That's all well and good, but I vividly remember Hitch talking about improving on the speed part of the game this time last season. Did we see the fruits of that quote? Why should we expect the team to actually play a faster game next season? Because Hitch said they will? He said the same exact thing last season.
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Re: Put on the cape: Blues GM wants more from Stastny

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cprice12 wrote:
ecbm wrote:
WaukeeBlues wrote:This team brass disgusts me that they're too afraid of sinking the boat by rocking it.
To extend the metaphor, it's not that hot a boat anyway. And the NHL won't actually let it actually sink. If something new was tried and it went wrong, so what? Could this team be any worse than it was about a decade ago? And yet here we are, still in the NHL, with the same number of Cups.

:doh:
Very true.
But to be fair...I'd rather the team be killer in the regular season and fizzle in the playoffs, than to suck balls every year and not even get in the playoffs. Yes, the high draft picks are nice...but we already have a really good team that is still well within it's window of opportunity to succeed. Blowing the team up isn't a smart move. Not yet anyway.

Knock the playoff results all you want...it's easy to do. But this team is still very good and will be among the cup favorites going into next season, barring any drastic moves that screw up the team of course.
They'll tweak some things and come back at it again.

I'm very curious to see what system adjustments they will make since Hitchcock emphasized that the style of play will change. We always complain about the conservative style that Hitchcock employs...well now the focus will be on more speed and generating more scoring chances on the rush. We'll see what player moves they make to cater to that and how it all works out.

And all of this talk about the Blues being afraid to make moves...you guys need to go back and look at the roster from two years ago and compare it to last year. There were a lot of changes/additions made, including our #1 goalie come playoff time...we've had three different ones the past 3 years.
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Re: Put on the cape: Blues GM wants more from Stastny

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cprice12 wrote:But to be fair...I'd rather the team be killer in the regular season and fizzle in the playoffs, than to suck balls every year and not even get in the playoffs.
That's a false dichotomy. As I'm sure you'll cede, I don't want either of those things. I'm against getting into a rut with a system that isn't producing results-and not winning in the playoffs is not producing results. Try something different this season, maybe for a couple. Doesn't work? Try something else. And so on. As it is, the Blues are becoming the Sharks. Do you like how that club has been run?
cprice12 wrote:Knock the playoff results all you want...it's easy to do.
It's not just easy to do, it's all that matters. I've seen this team dominate the regular season, repeatedly. It's not actually that rewarding. I think a Cup would be.

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