Barret Jackman - Is he or isn't he a good defenseman?

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Re: Barret Jackman - Is he or isn't he a good defenseman?

Postby Battra » Sun Mar 22, 2009 3:30 am

i am glad to see that jackman is finally getting the criticism that brew always gets for the same lapses, albeit not to the same extent.

jax will make a great play, throw a big hit, turn the puck over, and take a stupid penalty of aggression. all in the same shift. we were definitely spoiled for years here with future hall of fame dmen. to the point where i don't think most people in this town know what a #1 dman is. expectations too high. right now we're definitely better with him than without him, and the same will be true next year. i think our d could look like this:

brewer~polak
jackman~johnson
mckee~coliacovo

i have to say i really like the way that looks. three strong d lines.
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Re: Barret Jackman - Is he or isn't he a good defenseman?

Postby OS » Sun Mar 22, 2009 7:04 am

Jackman doesn't get the same criticism as Brewer because Jackman's issues are generally because of talent limitations while Brewer makes stupid mental mistakes time after time. Brewer doesn't lack talent, he's just dumb as shit.
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Re: Barret Jackman - Is he or isn't he a good defenseman?

Postby crazy blues fan » Sun Mar 22, 2009 8:39 am

OS wrote:Jackman doesn't get the same criticism as Brewer because Jackman's issues are generally because of talent limitations while Brewer makes stupid mental mistakes time after time. Brewer doesn't lack talent, he's just dumb as shit.


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Re: Barret Jackman - Is he or isn't he a good defenseman?

Postby crazy blues fan » Sun Mar 22, 2009 8:43 am

Battra wrote:i am glad to see that jackman is finally getting the criticism that brew always gets for the same lapses, albeit not to the same extent.

jax will make a great play, throw a big hit, turn the puck over, and take a stupid penalty of aggression. all in the same shift. we were definitely spoiled for years here with future hall of fame dmen. to the point where i don't think most people in this town know what a #1 dman is. expectations too high. right now we're definitely better with him than without him, and the same will be true next year. i think our d could look like this:

brewer~polak
jackman~johnson
mckee~coliacovo

i have to say i really like the way that looks. three strong d lines.


I don't think McKee will be here next year. I think they will buy him out and keep Petro.
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Re: Barret Jackman - Is he or isn't he a good defenseman?

Postby Battra » Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:56 am

OS wrote:Jackman doesn't get the same criticism as Brewer because Jackman's issues are generally because of talent limitations while Brewer makes stupid mental mistakes time after time. Brewer doesn't lack talent, he's just dumb as shit.


Ahh..

What's his IQ?
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Re: Barret Jackman - Is he or isn't he a good defenseman?

Postby Battra » Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:58 am

crazy blues fan wrote:
Battra wrote:i am glad to see that jackman is finally getting the criticism that brew always gets for the same lapses, albeit not to the same extent.

jax will make a great play, throw a big hit, turn the puck over, and take a stupid penalty of aggression. all in the same shift. we were definitely spoiled for years here with future hall of fame dmen. to the point where i don't think most people in this town know what a #1 dman is. expectations too high. right now we're definitely better with him than without him, and the same will be true next year. i think our d could look like this:

brewer~polak
jackman~johnson
mckee~coliacovo

i have to say i really like the way that looks. three strong d lines.


I don't think McKee will be here next year. I think they will buy him out and keep Petro.


I'm still confused as to why everybody thinks that Petro is the greatest thing since sliced bread....NOW...of course half of this city thinks Erik Johnson is our number one defenseman and in his second season was ready to play 35 mins a night.... I think he'll get his chance next year and we'll see. I think it would be a pretty stupid move to unload McKee..because then we don't have much veteran presence on the D-corps.
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Re: Barret Jackman - Is he or isn't he a good defenseman?

Postby OS » Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:54 am

Battra wrote:
OS wrote:Jackman doesn't get the same criticism as Brewer because Jackman's issues are generally because of talent limitations while Brewer makes stupid mental mistakes time after time. Brewer doesn't lack talent, he's just dumb as shit.


Ahh..

What's his IQ?


So you've got nothing.

Glad we've cleared that up.
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Re: Barret Jackman - Is he or isn't he a good defenseman?

Postby Battra » Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:02 am

OS wrote:
Battra wrote:
OS wrote:Jackman doesn't get the same criticism as Brewer because Jackman's issues are generally because of talent limitations while Brewer makes stupid mental mistakes time after time. Brewer doesn't lack talent, he's just dumb as shit.


Ahh..

What's his IQ?


So you've got nothing.

Glad we've cleared that up.


So you don't know?

So is it safe to say that you don't know the intellectual capabilities of one Eric Brewer, yet make wild, baseless claims to the effect that you do?
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Re: Barret Jackman - Is he or isn't he a good defenseman?

Postby OS » Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:06 am

Battra wrote:
OS wrote:
Battra wrote:
OS wrote:Jackman doesn't get the same criticism as Brewer because Jackman's issues are generally because of talent limitations while Brewer makes stupid mental mistakes time after time. Brewer doesn't lack talent, he's just dumb as shit.


Ahh..

What's his IQ?


So you've got nothing.

Glad we've cleared that up.


So you don't know?

So is it safe to say that you don't know the intellectual capabilities of one Eric Brewer, yet make wild, baseless claims to the effect that you do?


Baseless? :lol: You're priceless. Maybe I base it on the fact that he multiple times every game tries to shoot the puck through a player 3 feet in front of him? That's just one example of the idiotic things he does all the time on the ice. This is the point where I'd normally just rip your hockey knowledge apart, but you don't even have to have hockey knowledge to see that he makes stupid mental mistakes, you just have to have common sense. Maybe that's why you post more on the asylum.
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Re: Barret Jackman - Is he or isn't he a good defenseman?

Postby Battra » Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:32 am

OS wrote:
Battra wrote:
OS wrote:
Battra wrote:
OS wrote:Jackman doesn't get the same criticism as Brewer because Jackman's issues are generally because of talent limitations while Brewer makes stupid mental mistakes time after time. Brewer doesn't lack talent, he's just dumb as shit.


Ahh..

What's his IQ?


So you've got nothing.

Glad we've cleared that up.


So you don't know?

So is it safe to say that you don't know the intellectual capabilities of one Eric Brewer, yet make wild, baseless claims to the effect that you do?


Baseless? :lol: You're priceless. Maybe I base it on the fact that he multiple times every game tries to shoot the puck through a player 3 feet in front of him? That's just one example of the idiotic things he does all the time on the ice. This is the point where I'd normally just rip your hockey knowledge apart, but you don't even have to have hockey knowledge to see that he makes stupid mental mistakes, you just have to have common sense. Maybe that's why you post more on the asylum.



OH! Nice!!!

Step 1: Dodge the question.
Step 2: Question my hockey knowledge.
Step 3: Hyperbole.
Step 4: Insult me.
Wow...you got step 2, 3 and 4 in one post. Good job!!!!

I gave up the Asylum actually...there are about oh...10 really good and knowlegeable posters there...and a bunch of bad ones...take themselves too seriously.

Here...well...I'll remain silent.

More baseless accusations. I'll chalk you up to a trade hater. Did you boo Chris Pronger too when he was traded here?
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Re: Barret Jackman - Is he or isn't he a good defenseman?

Postby OS » Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:40 am

I'm dodging?

I gave you a specific example of Brewer's stupidity on the ice and you completely ignored it.

Stop now and quit embarrassing yourself.
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Re: Barret Jackman - Is he or isn't he a good defenseman?

Postby Battra » Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:55 am

OS wrote:I'm dodging?

I gave you a specific example of Brewer's stupidity on the ice and you completely ignored it.

Stop now and quit embarrassing yourself.


1) I asked you what his IQ was.

Did you answer? NOPE!

2) You gave me no specific example of his 'stupidity.' You did however, give me an excellent example of hyperbole. That's a logical fallacy. You cannot prove that Brewer was in fact trying to shoot THROUGH the legs of the defenders, nor that he does this multiple times per game.

Can you answer any of the questions you just dodged in the last post?
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Re: Barret Jackman - Is he or isn't he a good defenseman?

Postby OS » Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:45 am

Battra wrote:You cannot prove that Brewer was in fact trying to shoot THROUGH the legs of the defenders, nor that he does this multiple times per game.


You're right, Brewer was probably trying to shoot directly at the skate and/or shinguard of the player right in front of him. That makes more sense.
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Re: Barret Jackman - Is he or isn't he a good defenseman?

Postby ksbluesfan » Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:55 am

Neither Jackman nor Brewer will ever win the Norris. They're both decent top 4 defensemen. Brewer's value will show if he ever plays a playoff game with the Blues. With the Oilers, he really seemed to step up when the games mattered.
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Re: Barret Jackman - Is he or isn't he a good defenseman?

Postby Battra » Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:08 pm

OS wrote:
Battra wrote:You cannot prove that Brewer was in fact trying to shoot THROUGH the legs of the defenders, nor that he does this multiple times per game.


You're right, Brewer was probably trying to shoot directly at the skate and/or shinguard of the player right in front of him. That makes more sense.


You don't think that perhaps he was trying to shoot the puck on net? You question my hockey knowledge...tsk tsk tsk.

Say, I'll ask you again, did you boo Pronger when Shanahan was traded for him?
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Re: Barret Jackman - Is he or isn't he a good defenseman?

Postby richtedm » Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:17 pm

Battra wrote:
OS wrote:
Battra wrote:You cannot prove that Brewer was in fact trying to shoot THROUGH the legs of the defenders, nor that he does this multiple times per game.


You're right, Brewer was probably trying to shoot directly at the skate and/or shinguard of the player right in front of him. That makes more sense.


You don't think that perhaps he was trying to shoot the puck on net? You question my hockey knowledge...tsk tsk tsk.

Say, I'll ask you again, did you boo Pronger when Shanahan was traded for him?


I have to say, Brewer (and most of the other Blues D) always seem to shoot the puck directly into the shins of the guy in front of them. Its almost embarrassing. Do I have a statistic for how often it happens? No... but when I go to the games and point out this tendency to others, it always always turns out to be accurate.

I think it was Mike Green in Washington who made the blatantly obvious remark that the reason for his success is that he often takes the extra step to make sure his shooting lane to the net is open. This is something that apparently has not set in with most of the Blues D. Brewer could be the worst of them all because he is the one who is most often trying to take the shot.
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Re: Barret Jackman - Is he or isn't he a good defenseman?

Postby Battra » Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:22 pm

richtedm wrote:
Battra wrote:
OS wrote:
Battra wrote:You cannot prove that Brewer was in fact trying to shoot THROUGH the legs of the defenders, nor that he does this multiple times per game.


You're right, Brewer was probably trying to shoot directly at the skate and/or shinguard of the player right in front of him. That makes more sense.


You don't think that perhaps he was trying to shoot the puck on net? You question my hockey knowledge...tsk tsk tsk.

Say, I'll ask you again, did you boo Pronger when Shanahan was traded for him?


I have to say, Brewer (and most of the other Blues D) always seem to shoot the puck directly into the shins of the guy in front of them. Its almost embarrassing. Do I have a statistic for how often it happens? No... but when I go to the games and point out this tendency to others, it always always turns out to be accurate.

I think it was Mike Green in Washington who made the blatantly obvious remark that the reason for his success is that he often takes the extra step to make sure his shooting lane to the net is open. This is something that apparently has not set in with most of the Blues D. Brewer could be the worst of them all because he is the one who is most often trying to take the shot.


I'm not saying for a second that they DON'T do it. I'm saying they don't TRY to do it, as OS is asserting. Of course that's just a hyperbolic assertion to disparage Brewer. He needs logical fallacies.

Leagues I have watched Live:

NHL, AHL, UHL, NAHL, NCAA, CSHL...how many of those leagues didn't have a shot hitting a defender in the shin guards do you think? Multiple times per game?

As for the Blues, right now, we don't really have any shooters from the point...Coliacaovo (One day I'll learn to spell his name...) is the closest we have...so..if you get your shot off slowly...it's gonna hit some shins.
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Re: Barret Jackman - Is he or isn't he a good defenseman?

Postby JWatt (formerly PMS) » Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:30 pm

Honestly, most of my problems with Jackman are mental as well. I can't count how many times he's tried clearing the puck of the middle during the PK, and it got intercepted and then turned into a goal. Remember the Washington game? Jackman loses track of his man in front of the net quite a bit. He did a similar thing in the Dallas game when he started watching Ribeiro only to let Lehtinen sneak in behind him. What about the Detroit game when he tried to stickhandle in the zone on the power play? Jackman has also been known to shoot the puck right into the defender's pads. Listen, I don't think he's as bad as Brewer, but most of my problems with Jackman are mental as well. He's Brewer Lite.
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Re: Barret Jackman - Is he or isn't he a good defenseman?

Postby richtedm » Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:50 pm

Battra wrote:
richtedm wrote:
Battra wrote:
OS wrote:
Battra wrote:You cannot prove that Brewer was in fact trying to shoot THROUGH the legs of the defenders, nor that he does this multiple times per game.


You're right, Brewer was probably trying to shoot directly at the skate and/or shinguard of the player right in front of him. That makes more sense.


You don't think that perhaps he was trying to shoot the puck on net? You question my hockey knowledge...tsk tsk tsk.

Say, I'll ask you again, did you boo Pronger when Shanahan was traded for him?


I have to say, Brewer (and most of the other Blues D) always seem to shoot the puck directly into the shins of the guy in front of them. Its almost embarrassing. Do I have a statistic for how often it happens? No... but when I go to the games and point out this tendency to others, it always always turns out to be accurate.

I think it was Mike Green in Washington who made the blatantly obvious remark that the reason for his success is that he often takes the extra step to make sure his shooting lane to the net is open. This is something that apparently has not set in with most of the Blues D. Brewer could be the worst of them all because he is the one who is most often trying to take the shot.


I'm not saying for a second that they DON'T do it. I'm saying they don't TRY to do it, as OS is asserting. Of course that's just a hyperbolic assertion to disparage Brewer. He needs logical fallacies.

Leagues I have watched Live:

NHL, AHL, UHL, NAHL, NCAA, CSHL...how many of those leagues didn't have a shot hitting a defender in the shin guards do you think? Multiple times per game?

As for the Blues, right now, we don't really have any shooters from the point...Coliacaovo (One day I'll learn to spell his name...) is the closest we have...so..if you get your shot off slowly...it's gonna hit some shins.


I am not sure there is major disagreement between people here. Brewer (granted, without statistical proof) seems to hit shins a lot more than the net. Significantly more. In fact, most of the Blues D does this. Yes, it happens to everyone and multiple times during the games. But anytime the Blues get a shot through from the point, it see it as a small miracle (unless it is Colaiacovo doing the shooting).

OS may not have any hard facts to prove his point, but you don't have any hard facts which would suggest he is wrong. I happen to agree with OS here... Brewer seems to have his head stuck up his ass when he is trying to shoot from the point. It really looks like the bigger the target in front of him is, the more likely he is going to try to shoot through it. It just doesn't work. Its pathetic how little the Blues D gets shots through from the point. Yeah, we were spoiled for a while with Pronger and MacInnis... but that doesnt change how bad it is.

It seems like you are just trying to downplay Brewer's deficiency in this area as a way to counter the general hostility that guy gets from Blues fans. But all you are doing is downplaying it without really showing he is actually any good at it.

The bottom line he isn't a # 1 or # 2 guy and is forced to play that role. As long as he is, he will get the scrutiny that comes with it. He will never thrive under that scrutiny. At least not in St. Louis where fans are used to having a legitimate #1 defensemen (or two).
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Re: Barret Jackman - Is he or isn't he a good defenseman?

Postby Battra » Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:19 pm

richtedm wrote:
Battra wrote:
richtedm wrote:
Battra wrote:
OS wrote:
Battra wrote:You cannot prove that Brewer was in fact trying to shoot THROUGH the legs of the defenders, nor that he does this multiple times per game.


You're right, Brewer was probably trying to shoot directly at the skate and/or shinguard of the player right in front of him. That makes more sense.


You don't think that perhaps he was trying to shoot the puck on net? You question my hockey knowledge...tsk tsk tsk.

Say, I'll ask you again, did you boo Pronger when Shanahan was traded for him?


I have to say, Brewer (and most of the other Blues D) always seem to shoot the puck directly into the shins of the guy in front of them. Its almost embarrassing. Do I have a statistic for how often it happens? No... but when I go to the games and point out this tendency to others, it always always turns out to be accurate.

I think it was Mike Green in Washington who made the blatantly obvious remark that the reason for his success is that he often takes the extra step to make sure his shooting lane to the net is open. This is something that apparently has not set in with most of the Blues D. Brewer could be the worst of them all because he is the one who is most often trying to take the shot.


I'm not saying for a second that they DON'T do it. I'm saying they don't TRY to do it, as OS is asserting. Of course that's just a hyperbolic assertion to disparage Brewer. He needs logical fallacies.

Leagues I have watched Live:

NHL, AHL, UHL, NAHL, NCAA, CSHL...how many of those leagues didn't have a shot hitting a defender in the shin guards do you think? Multiple times per game?

As for the Blues, right now, we don't really have any shooters from the point...Coliacaovo (One day I'll learn to spell his name...) is the closest we have...so..if you get your shot off slowly...it's gonna hit some shins.


I am not sure there is major disagreement between people here. Brewer (granted, without statistical proof) seems to hit shins a lot more than the net. Significantly more. In fact, most of the Blues D does this. Yes, it happens to everyone and multiple times during the games. But anytime the Blues get a shot through from the point, it see it as a small miracle (unless it is Colaiacovo doing the shooting).

OS may not have any hard facts to prove his point, but you don't have any hard facts which would suggest he is wrong. I happen to agree with OS here... Brewer seems to have his head stuck up his ass when he is trying to shoot from the point. It really looks like the bigger the target in front of him is, the more likely he is going to try to shoot through it. It just doesn't work. Its pathetic how little the Blues D gets shots through from the point. Yeah, we were spoiled for a while with Pronger and MacInnis... but that doesnt change how bad it is.

It seems like you are just trying to downplay Brewer's deficiency in this area as a way to counter the general hostility that guy gets from Blues fans. But all you are doing is downplaying it without really showing he is actually any good at it.

The bottom line he isn't a # 1 or # 2 guy and is forced to play that role. As long as he is, he will get the scrutiny that comes with it. He will never thrive under that scrutiny. At least not in St. Louis where fans are used to having a legitimate #1 defensemen (or two).



I haven't shown any proof that he IS good at, because I don't think he is good at it. He's a jack of all trades defenseman. He's d is better than his o, but he's got skills in both areas.

If MOST of the Blues D do it, it's not rational or fair criticism to single out Brewer, as OP was doing.

Please name for me 3 NON-Future Hall of Fame #1 defensmen the Blues have had in the time you've followed this team, or since 1980, whichever is shorter.

(sorry..had to revise that one...1990 was too short.)
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