Barret Jackman - Is he or isn't he a good defenseman?

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Re: Barret Jackman - Is he or isn't he a good defenseman?

Postby richtedm » Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:19 pm

I'm sorry but what is the relevance of non-future hall of fame defensemen since 1980?

To be honest, I wouldn't be that helpful. Age-wise I'd say the first Blues game I even remember was around 91-92. MacInnis or Pronger have been the Blues top defensemen for basically my entire lifetime (at least the lifetime where I would be able to claim any first hand knowledge of the team).

The only way this has any significance would be to temper peoples' expectations for Brewer, by arguing that the Blues haven't always had a number #1 defensemen and that it is unfair to criticize Brewer for not being one??? Who cares? Why go back 20 years to bail out the present?

Brewer isn't a #1 guy. Probably isnt a #2 guy. He's probably the best candidate they have to fill either of those roles, but he still falls short. Until the Blues find somebody better, Brewer is going to keep trying to step into that role and he is going to keep failing. And as long as that happens, the Blues D simply won't be good enough. I think it would be extremely beneficial to have Brewer... but in the right role. In the meantime, repetitively blasting shots from the point off of a defenseman standing three feet in front of him is going to continue to be obnoxious. And it easily makes him look like an idiot. Same for the rest of them. The problem is they don't have someone back there who can shoot the puck from the point on a regular basis without looking idiotic. Brewer symbolizes all of that since he is the "best" they have and will always take criticism for it.

EDIT/Addition:

I see you posted the same question elsewhere. STL fan in IA is pretty much spot on. I am not talking simply about Blues standards for a #1... there he probably should be considered #1. But around the league, I think he is nowhere near the ideal #1 guy. And again, maybe not even a #2 guy.
Last edited by richtedm on Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Barret Jackman - Is he or isn't he a good defenseman?

Postby Battra » Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:26 pm

richtedm wrote:I'm sorry but what is the relevance of non-future hall of fame defensemen since 1980?

To be honest, I wouldn't be that helpful. Age-wise I'd say the first Blues game I even remember was around 91-92. MacInnis or Pronger have been the Blues top defensemen for basically my entire lifetime (at least the lifetime where I would be able to claim any first hand knowledge of the team).

The only way this has any significance would be to temper peoples' expectations for Brewer, by arguing that the Blues haven't always had a number #1 defensemen and that it is unfair to criticize Brewer for not being one??? Who cares? Why go back 20 years to bail out the present?

Brewer isn't a #1 guy. Probably isnt a #2 guy. He's probably the best candidate they have to fill either of those roles, but he still falls short. Until the Blues find somebody better, Brewer is going to keep trying to step into that role and he is going to keep failing. And as long as that happens, the Blues D simply won't be good enough. I think it would be extremely beneficial to have Brewer... but in the right role. In the meantime, repetitively blasting shots from the point off of a defenseman standing three feet in front of him is going to continue to be obnoxious. And it easily makes him look like an idiot. Same for the rest of them. The problem is they don't have someone back there who can shoot the puck from the point on a regular basis without looking idiotic. Brewer symbolizes all of that since he is the "best" they have and will always take criticism for it.



It's a simple point. You don't have a frame of reference to what a "true #1 is." You said it yourself...in your whole life of fandom, you've watched Future Hall of Famers play on the top and second pairings.

So I'm curious, those who say he's not a true number 1, show me what a NON-hall of famer number one is, or do you have to be a future hall of famer to be a true number one?

When Brew's paired with the right kind of partner, he's a much better player because he only has to do so much.

Edit:

You said:
The bottom line he isn't a # 1 or # 2 guy and is forced to play that role. As long as he is, he will get the scrutiny that comes with it. He will never thrive under that scrutiny. At least not in St. Louis where fans are used to having a legitimate #1 defensemen (or two).

So..I'm curious...aside from Future Hall of Famers...I'd like to know what the others ones are. This goes back to my point about how St. Louis fans don't know what a number one is. They know what a future hall of famer is.
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Re: Barret Jackman - Is he or isn't he a good defenseman?

Postby richtedm » Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:43 pm

Battra wrote: So..I'm curious...aside from Future Hall of Famers...I'd like to know what the others ones are. This goes back to my point about how St. Louis fans don't know what a number one is. They know what a future hall of famer is.


A #1 is a guy who excels at defense and contributes significantly to the team's offense (transition included). Hall of Famer's obviously meet this standard. Do you have to be a future hall of famer to be a #1? No, not necessarily. But that would put that player at the lower end of the spectrum of "#1's."

I just don't understand what your point is here. Do you think Brewer is a #1 (by the NHL's standards, not the bare cupboard of the current Blues team)? Or are you just inciting discussion?

You've done a good job taking a hard look at other peoples' opinions without letting your own face scrutiny.
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Re: Barret Jackman - Is he or isn't he a good defenseman?

Postby JWatt (formerly PMS) » Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:55 pm

Brewer isn't a top two paring defenseman, much less a #1 or 2. At this point he's no better than a #5-6, but he gets paid like a #2-3. That is our problem with him. He's not earning his salary.
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Re: Barret Jackman - Is he or isn't he a good defenseman?

Postby kodos » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:14 pm

I'm not even sure Brewer could make it onto a high school team. I'm surprised he even has the brain power to drive to the rink or put on shoes.

I'd say he'd qualify to be the #19 guy on a game of NHL 93 on the Sega Genesis, maybe.
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Re: Barret Jackman - Is he or isn't he a good defenseman?

Postby WaukeeBlues » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:24 pm

kodos wrote:I'm not even sure Brewer could make it onto a high school team. I'm surprised he even has the brain power to drive to the rink or put on shoes.

I'd say he'd qualify to be the #19 guy on a game of NHL 93 on the Sega Genesis, maybe.


d*mn dude :lol:

Maybe just a tad harsh?
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Re: Barret Jackman - Is he or isn't he a good defenseman?

Postby section319 » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:44 pm

This has turned into a horrible thread.
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Re: Barret Jackman - Is he or isn't he a good defenseman?

Postby Leedog » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:46 pm

I kinda think the Blues (with or without Brewer) might be better off with a bullpen-by-committee approach. In other words roll your 3 pairs at even strength regardless of who they are up against. This way, no one combo gets over exposed game in and game out to the other teams best. If nothing else, it may keep guys from losing their confidence.
I wonder if the D shooting the puck into the other teams shinguards wouldn't happen as much if 15,000 jerkoffs didn't yell SHOOOOTTT!!! every time they touch the puck.
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Re: Barret Jackman - Is he or isn't he a good defenseman?

Postby section319 » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:47 pm

Leedog wrote:15,000 jerkoffs didn't yell SHOOOOTTT!!! every time they touch the puck.



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Re: Barret Jackman - Is he or isn't he a good defenseman?

Postby northwest dave » Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:14 pm

Battra wrote:Please name for me 3 NON-Future Hall of Fame #1 defensmen the Blues have had in the time you've followed this team, or since 1980, whichever is shorter.

(sorry..had to revise that one...1990 was too short.)


Hmmm....

Rob Ramage
Jeff Brown
Garth Butcher :P

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Re: Barret Jackman - Is he or isn't he a good defenseman?

Postby Leedog » Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:12 pm

I'd rather match Butcher against a teams top line than anyone we have right now.
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Re: Barret Jackman - Is he or isn't he a good defenseman?

Postby crazy blues fan » Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:34 pm

Battra wrote:
crazy blues fan wrote:
Battra wrote:i am glad to see that jackman is finally getting the criticism that brew always gets for the same lapses, albeit not to the same extent.

jax will make a great play, throw a big hit, turn the puck over, and take a stupid penalty of aggression. all in the same shift. we were definitely spoiled for years here with future hall of fame dmen. to the point where i don't think most people in this town know what a #1 dman is. expectations too high. right now we're definitely better with him than without him, and the same will be true next year. i think our d could look like this:

brewer~polak
jackman~johnson
mckee~coliacovo

i have to say i really like the way that looks. three strong d lines.


I don't think McKee will be here next year. I think they will buy him out and keep Petro.


I'm still confused as to why everybody thinks that Petro is the greatest thing since sliced bread....NOW...of course half of this city thinks Erik Johnson is our number one defenseman and in his second season was ready to play 35 mins a night.... I think he'll get his chance next year and we'll see. I think it would be a pretty stupid move to unload McKee..because then we don't have much veteran presence on the D-corps.


Where did I say petro was great? I just think the Blues will have him on the team next year. Exactly how many veteran D-men do you need?
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Re: Barret Jackman - Is he or isn't he a good defenseman?

Postby Leedog » Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:08 pm

Didn't this year teach you anything? There is plenty of ice time for 7 defensemen and 14 forwards.
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Re: Barret Jackman - Is he or isn't he a good defenseman?

Postby northwest dave » Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:23 pm

Leedog wrote:I'd rather match Butcher against a teams top line than anyone we have right now.


He'd at least punish them after they score.

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Re: Barret Jackman - Is he or isn't he a good defenseman?

Postby JWatt (formerly PMS) » Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:38 pm

northwest dave wrote:
Leedog wrote:I'd rather match Butcher against a teams top line than anyone we have right now.


He'd at least punish them after they score.


Jackman will punch them in the face after they score and get called for a penalty. Does that count?
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Re: Barret Jackman - Is he or isn't he a good defenseman?

Postby cprice12 » Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:03 pm

Leedog wrote:I'd rather match Butcher against a teams top line than anyone we have right now.


Pollack has been good....he's been very good.
I was never a fan of Butcher.
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Re: Barret Jackman - Is he or isn't he a good defenseman?

Postby OS » Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:10 pm

Battra wrote:It's a simple point. You don't have a frame of reference to what a "true #1 is." You said it yourself...in your whole life of fandom, you've watched Future Hall of Famers play on the top and second pairings.

So I'm curious, those who say he's not a true number 1, show me what a NON-hall of famer number one is, or do you have to be a future hall of famer to be a true number one?

When Brew's paired with the right kind of partner, he's a much better player because he only has to do so much.

Edit:

You said:
The bottom line he isn't a # 1 or # 2 guy and is forced to play that role. As long as he is, he will get the scrutiny that comes with it. He will never thrive under that scrutiny. At least not in St. Louis where fans are used to having a legitimate #1 defensemen (or two).

So..I'm curious...aside from Future Hall of Famers...I'd like to know what the others ones are. This goes back to my point about how St. Louis fans don't know what a number one is. They know what a future hall of famer is.


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Re: Barret Jackman - Is he or isn't he a good defenseman?

Postby JWatt (formerly PMS) » Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:52 am

cprice12 wrote:
Leedog wrote:I'd rather match Butcher against a teams top line than anyone we have right now.


Pollack has been good....he's been very good.
I was never a fan of Butcher.


Honestly, Polak hasn't been as good since he's come back from his foot injury. The goal he allowed against Vancouver was awful. That being said, I'm comfortable with him as a 2nd pairing shut-down defenseman on this team for years to come.
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Re: Barret Jackman - Is he or isn't he a good defenseman?

Postby Battra » Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:22 am

richtedm wrote:
Battra wrote: So..I'm curious...aside from Future Hall of Famers...I'd like to know what the others ones are. This goes back to my point about how St. Louis fans don't know what a number one is. They know what a future hall of famer is.


A #1 is a guy who excels at defense and contributes significantly to the team's offense (transition included). Hall of Famer's obviously meet this standard. Do you have to be a future hall of famer to be a #1? No, not necessarily. But that would put that player at the lower end of the spectrum of "#1's."

I just don't understand what your point is here. Do you think Brewer is a #1 (by the NHL's standards, not the bare cupboard of the current Blues team)? Or are you just inciting discussion?

You've done a good job taking a hard look at other peoples' opinions without letting your own face scrutiny.


What do you define as significant?

So, the bottom tier of True #1 defensemen are the ones that aren't going to the hall of fame??? Do you realize the statement you've just made? That the majority of #1 defensemen are future hall of famers.

Thank you, your standards are way too high.

By definition he's a number 1 defenseman. You really can't question it. He plays against the top lines, etc etc.

I'd say on at least 15 NHL teams he's a top pairing defenseman.
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Re: Barret Jackman - Is he or isn't he a good defenseman?

Postby Battra » Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:24 am

crazy blues fan wrote:
Battra wrote:
crazy blues fan wrote:
Battra wrote:i am glad to see that jackman is finally getting the criticism that brew always gets for the same lapses, albeit not to the same extent.

jax will make a great play, throw a big hit, turn the puck over, and take a stupid penalty of aggression. all in the same shift. we were definitely spoiled for years here with future hall of fame dmen. to the point where i don't think most people in this town know what a #1 dman is. expectations too high. right now we're definitely better with him than without him, and the same will be true next year. i think our d could look like this:

brewer~polak
jackman~johnson
mckee~coliacovo

i have to say i really like the way that looks. three strong d lines.


I don't think McKee will be here next year. I think they will buy him out and keep Petro.


I'm still confused as to why everybody thinks that Petro is the greatest thing since sliced bread....NOW...of course half of this city thinks Erik Johnson is our number one defenseman and in his second season was ready to play 35 mins a night.... I think he'll get his chance next year and we'll see. I think it would be a pretty stupid move to unload McKee..because then we don't have much veteran presence on the D-corps.


Where did I say petro was great? I just think the Blues will have him on the team next year. Exactly how many veteran D-men do you need?


Sorry, not you specifically.

I just hear him getting far more accolades than he's earned yet. I'm not counting on him being on the team next year...we'll see.

My preference would be four.
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