GDT: Blues v Preds FSMW (no dish)

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Re: GDT: Blues v Preds FSMW (no dish)

Postby dmiles2186 » Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:09 pm

Nyghtewynd wrote:Because there's a long line of #1 picks that can't get on the ice for one of the worst teams in the league. Yeah, he's freaking Crosby.

Either that, or Murray is a grade-A bozo that should have been fired a long time ago. Pick one.


Of course he's not Crosby. He's a defenseman with only (technically) 1 and a half years worth of on ice NHL experience. The guy was leading our team in points scored at one point. Mr. Al Macinnis has said over and over again that a defenseman in the NHL really starts "getting it" when he hits 200 games played. EJ is far from that. D-men can't come in and dominate the league right away. If you have watched EJ since he came up and have any notion of calling him a bust, I say you're crazy.

To me, this is Murray grasping for straws, trying to find something to give this team a boost (since apparently the Pleau "You're All Worthless" speech is wearing off) and save his job behind the bench. It's not that EJ has been playing so terribly lately. He is in a bit of a slump and for whatever reason, when a vet is in a slump, Murray allows him to play through it. When it's a younger guy, Murray shows him to his seat in the press box.
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Re: GDT: Blues v Preds FSMW (no dish)

Postby Nyghtewynd » Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:12 pm

I'm done blaming Murray for being Murray. We got out of him last year the absolute peak of everything he's been shown to be able to do, which is taking an underachieving team and getting them to average, and that's what he did. This year is, again, the next thing that he has been shown to do--destroy said team after they're done listening to him.

Murray can't help it. He is what he is. Dollar Dave and JD, however, are fully responsible for this tire fire. Have you heard from either of them in the past week or two? Nope.

They can't even FIX A BLOODY ESCALATOR.
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Re: GDT: Blues v Preds FSMW (no dish)

Postby dmiles2186 » Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:34 pm

Nyghtewynd wrote:I'm done blaming Murray for being Murray. We got out of him last year the absolute peak of everything he's been shown to be able to do, which is taking an underachieving team and getting them to average, and that's what he did. This year is, again, the next thing that he has been shown to do--destroy said team after they're done listening to him.

Murray can't help it. He is what he is. Dollar Dave and JD, however, are fully responsible for this tire fire. Have you heard from either of them in the past week or two? Nope.

They can't even FIX A BLOODY ESCALATOR.


Dollar Dave and JD brought this team and organization out of the pit it was in. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt in this. Maybe we haven't heard from this because they are trying to formulate a plan as to where to take this thing next. And in case you haven't forgot, Dollar Dave is a championship owner in another sport (soccer, MLS, Real Salt Lake) and JD knows what he's doing. Yes, they've made some questionable signings, but you will when you are trying to sign people to give this team a boost.

You can hate on them if you want. That's fine. To each their own. But it's not their fault EJ is benched tonight. Yes, Murray is still the coach, but who is out there to replace him right now? Maybe JD and Dave are searching for that answer right now. We don't know, so to assume they're just sitting with their thumbs up their asses is not what I'm going to do.

But regardless, the initial point you made that EJ was a borderline bust. Dollar Dave and JD have nothing to do with that because it's not true. EJ may not be the home run that Crosby is, but he's far from a bust, in my opinion.
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Re: GDT: Blues v Preds FSMW (no dish)

Postby ProngerBlues44 » Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:37 pm

I can't even stomach to watch this game tonight.

Preds - I don't care.
Blues- I don't care.

Either fire Murray or start giving the veterans the same treatment the young guys are getting and I will watch another game.
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Re: GDT: Blues v Preds FSMW (no dish)

Postby WaukeeBlues » Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:38 pm

dmiles2186 wrote:
Nyghtewynd wrote:I'm done blaming Murray for being Murray. We got out of him last year the absolute peak of everything he's been shown to be able to do, which is taking an underachieving team and getting them to average, and that's what he did. This year is, again, the next thing that he has been shown to do--destroy said team after they're done listening to him.

Murray can't help it. He is what he is. Dollar Dave and JD, however, are fully responsible for this tire fire. Have you heard from either of them in the past week or two? Nope.

They can't even FIX A BLOODY ESCALATOR.


Dollar Dave and JD brought this team and organization out of the pit it was in. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt in this. Maybe we haven't heard from this because they are trying to formulate a plan as to where to take this thing next. And in case you haven't forgot, Dollar Dave is a championship owner in another sport (soccer, MLS, Real Salt Lake) and JD knows what he's doing. Yes, they've made some questionable signings, but you will when you are trying to sign people to give this team a boost.

You can hate on them if you want. That's fine. To each their own. But it's not their fault EJ is benched tonight. Yes, Murray is still the coach, but who is out there to replace him right now? Maybe JD and Dave are searching for that answer right now. We don't know, so to assume they're just sitting with their thumbs up their asses is not what I'm going to do.

But regardless, the initial point you made that EJ was a borderline bust. Dollar Dave and JD have nothing to do with that because it's not true. EJ may not be the home run that Crosby is, but he's by far a bust, in my opinion.


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Re: GDT: Blues v Preds FSMW (no dish)

Postby goon attack » Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:39 pm

northwest dave wrote: I'm sure EJ will learn alot from watching Weaver and Brewer.


He sure will. You don't have to watch the best to learn things.
Also, he can learn what NOT to do.
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Re: GDT: Blues v Preds FSMW (no dish)

Postby ProngerBlues44 » Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:39 pm

Barret Jackman - bust?
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Re: GDT: Blues v Preds FSMW (no dish)

Postby WaukeeBlues » Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:40 pm

ProngerBlues44 wrote:I can't even stomach to watch this game tonight.

Preds - I don't care.
Blues- I don't care.

Either fire Murray or start giving the veterans the same treatment the young guys are getting and I will watch another game.


Eh, the Preds gave the Hawks one hell of a battle the other night and nearly pulled it out. And as bad as the Blues have the capacity of being, they're light years from 05-06

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Re: GDT: Blues v Preds FSMW (no dish)

Postby Nyghtewynd » Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:42 pm

So the Blues are in great shape because Dollar Dave owns a soccer team, and JD knows what he's doing because...well, people say he knows what he's doing. You have to ignore those "questionable" signing that he's made, because...wait, that's all he's done here.

Dollar Dave has done one thing: keep the team in St. Louis. Bully for him. Everything else has been a tire fire. So we're saying that he gets the benefit of the doubt because his check didn't bounce?
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Re: GDT: Blues v Preds FSMW (no dish)

Postby goon attack » Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:44 pm

Anybody expecting a defenseman to come into the NHL from juniors and be great is clueless. NHL defensemen take about 5 years to develop properly, give or take a year.

in other words, Jackman right now is pretty much the player he will always be and EJ is about 4 years away.

You should NEVER give up on a blue chip d-man like EJ in the first 5 years, EVER.
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Re: GDT: Blues v Preds FSMW (no dish)

Postby fargoblues » Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:45 pm

This lady: huge bust.
http://i45.tinypic.com/143keih.jpg


Seriously though, I want to see the paper bags out in full force on this one. Either that or blood spurting on the ice. Every shift. Barret Jackman throwing out his shoulder pounding some mustard-colored puss bag into another realm of existance. Eric Brewer amazing us all with a two-game point streak (while going -4 in that span). Daryl Sydor doing whatever it is that he does. HATE TEH LORDS OF TTHE GHEY!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: GDT: Blues v Preds FSMW (no dish)

Postby Nyghtewynd » Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:54 pm

goon attack wrote:Anybody expecting a defenseman to come into the NHL from juniors and be great is clueless. NHL defensemen take about 5 years to develop properly, give or take a year.

in other words, Jackman right now is pretty much the player he will always be and EJ is about 4 years away.

You should NEVER give up on a blue chip d-man like EJ in the first 5 years, EVER.


I think that's a true statement. But this begs the question: should you really EVER draft a D-man if it's going to take five years to develop him, you might lose him to free agency, and INSTEAD the Blues could have had Staal, Toews, or Kessel?
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Re: GDT: Blues v Preds FSMW (no dish)

Postby WaukeeBlues » Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:56 pm

Nyghtewynd wrote:So the Blues are in great shape because Dollar Dave owns a soccer team, and JD knows what he's doing because...well, people say he knows what he's doing. You have to ignore those "questionable" signing that he's made, because...wait, that's all he's done here.

Dollar Dave has done one thing: keep the team in St. Louis. Bully for him. Everything else has been a tire fire. So we're saying that he gets the benefit of the doubt because his check didn't bounce?


The list of things these guys have done right FAR outweighs the list of screw ups and I don't know how anyone- even during a year like this- can fail to see that. For the first time ever the Blues are building from within with talented, young players, keeping a core group together. Perron is turning into a stud, EJ WILL BE a dominant defenseman, and there are more on the way. It takes time. We got spoiled last year into thinking it would all happen overnight. As much I hate it along with all other Blues fans, we need to be patient a while longer.

The negatives. Kariya is not even that big a negative. Wow, a free agent signing where you're paying him more than he's actually producing. Good thing that's never happened before in professional sports. At least it wasn't a Cutler-esque thing where we not only are not getting any production but gave up picks and prospects to "get" it. The Kariya signing wasn't as big a tragedy as you're making it sound.

And Murray, well I can go on forever. There should be a coaching change, whole heartedly agree.
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Re: GDT: Blues v Preds FSMW (no dish)

Postby strocklen083 » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:54 pm

dmiles2186 wrote:D-men can't come in and dominate the league right away.

See: Bogosian, Zach
See: Doughty, Drew
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Re: GDT: Blues v Preds FSMW (no dish)

Postby gaijin » Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:06 pm

Let's get this game going! I'm off work and just sitting around the house. Hurry up, dammit! :gheylords: :mustard:
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Re: GDT: Blues v Preds FSMW (no dish)

Postby dmiles2186 » Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:12 pm

Nyghtewynd wrote:So the Blues are in great shape because Dollar Dave owns a soccer team, and JD knows what he's doing because...well, people say he knows what he's doing. You have to ignore those "questionable" signing that he's made, because...wait, that's all he's done here.

Dollar Dave has done one thing: keep the team in St. Louis. Bully for him. Everything else has been a tire fire. So we're saying that he gets the benefit of the doubt because his check didn't bounce?


In no way did I say the Blues are great because Dollar Dave owns a soccer team. Your argument paints these two as idiots who are clueless. My point was that Dollar Dave, and I quote, is a "championship owner." He has marketed this team well. Yes, the pieces of the puzzle biz is backfiring this year. But he understood the severity of the pit that the franchise was in when he bought the team. He gave us, the fans, a reason to believe. This team is MILES away from where it was just 3 years ago. This team has talent that is working its way onto the roster and spills down to the farm system.

As for JD doing nothing, how about the complete pillaging of Atlanta and San Jose when he traded Tkachuk and Guerin in '07 and got a whole host of draft picks? What about turning Dennis Wideman into Brad Boyes who then went on to score 70+ goals in his first two full seasons here?

What about spinning Lee Stempniak into Alex Steen and Carlo Coliaiacovo, who went on to be key players last year? Steen on the PK and Cola being our most productive D-man.

What about working things out to get 3 first rounders in '07? Those players turned into Lars Eller, Ian Cole, and David Perron. Signing Ty Conklin as a solid backup? Picking up Crombeen on waivers who has turned into a pretty good PK guy this year?

But yeah, you're right. Completely clueless. Fire 'em all. They all suck.
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Re: GDT: Blues v Preds FSMW (no dish)

Postby dmiles2186 » Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:16 pm

strocklen083 wrote:
dmiles2186 wrote:D-men can't come in and dominate the league right away.

See: Bogosian, Zach
See: Doughty, Drew


Exceptions to the rule.

How about, oh, Chris Pronger?
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Re: GDT: Blues v Preds FSMW (no dish)

Postby BF44 » Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:24 pm

Nyghtewynd wrote:So the Blues are in great shape because Dollar Dave owns a soccer team, and JD knows what he's doing because...well, people say he knows what he's doing. You have to ignore those "questionable" signing that he's made, because...wait, that's all he's done here.

Dollar Dave has done one thing: keep the team in St. Louis.
Bully for him. Everything else has been a tire fire. So we're saying that he gets the benefit of the doubt because his check didn't bounce?

You're damn right he kept the team in St. Louis. Minimize this if you think you're justified in doing so, but without his efforts, St. Louis might not even have a team to bitch and moan about. You can say he's making a mistake by keeping Andy Murray, and that's fine. But unless you have experience running a major league professional sports team, I'm willing to bet that he's probably got a better handle on what he's doing and how he's doing it than any of us on this entire forum put together. This isn't Fantasy hockey, and it CERTAINLY isn't free to play.

Sorry, but I find this "Dollar Dave" shtick to be totally and completely unfair. Perhaps you'd rather have someone like the owner of the Pittsburgh Pirates, who simply takes his Revenue sharing check and deposits it, rather than spend money on players? Maybe a guy like the late Bill Wirtz, who wouldn't even show home games on local TV? Or perhaps Clay Bennett, who bought the Seattle SuperSonics a few years ago -- How'd that turn out?
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Re: GDT: Blues v Preds FSMW (no dish)

Postby Blue Beagle » Tue Dec 29, 2009 5:13 pm

Nyghtewynd wrote:
goon attack wrote:Anybody expecting a defenseman to come into the NHL from juniors and be great is clueless. NHL defensemen take about 5 years to develop properly, give or take a year.

in other words, Jackman right now is pretty much the player he will always be and EJ is about 4 years away.

You should NEVER give up on a blue chip d-man like EJ in the first 5 years, EVER.


I think that's a true statement. But this begs the question: should you really EVER draft a D-man if it's going to take five years to develop him, you might lose him to free agency, and INSTEAD the Blues could have had Staal, Toews, or Kessel?

Absolutely you should, but I don't think it's wise to spend your two highest first round draft picks in ages on 2 offensive defencemen so close to each other. Someone more NHL ready, like IDK ... Luke Schenn may have been a better choice (if it had to be a defenceman).

They really set themselves up for fail because they forgot that the fans need to see something substantial either through the draft or through free agency during this rebuilding period and my point is that you do have to draft for need and not always blindly go for who you think is the best player available, because if you can't develop the best player, he won't be much of a trading chip anyway.

IDK, I hear you. Bad FA signings, crazy draft choices, and the extension to Murray has everyone scratching their heads.
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Re: GDT: Blues v Preds FSMW (no dish)

Postby goon attack » Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:28 pm

There are always a few exceptions to the rule, but the general opinion is that 5 years is the test for dmen. If they suck after that, it's time to rethink it...

EJ needs to mature for a few years. Sitting him an odd game here and there is no big whup.

Besides, maybe he has something nagging that they aren't talking about.

oh, and btw, doughty and bogosian aren't dominating jack shit and are both minus players in general, so far. Doughty is plus 7 right now but he was minus 17 last year. Plus, this formula doesn't really apply to guys putting up some numbers, it applies to being rock solid defensively.
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