W. T. F.

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W. T. F.

Postby strocklen083 » Fri Jan 08, 2010 9:39 am

What did we do? That's the question I've been asking myself over the course of the last week or two. What did we as a city, as fans, as an organization do to have this franchise regress into a mediocracy? After watching this never ending streak of blown leads and 3rd period collaspes I've finally hit that point where I just have to throw my arms in the air with no words. It's frustrating and dejecting at the same time.

For years we sat by as patient fans, cheering on above average teams as they raced into the playoffs only to go out with a thud every year. Then when the whole thing blew up a loyal few of us stood by and waited as the rebuild finally took hold and we returned to the playoffs last year. But now with what seemed like a great core of young players, the team continues to slide in the standing with the inability to maintain leads or go on any type of big run. Meanwhile, cities and franchises that have no business having a hockey team strive and win cups (Anaheim, Carolina, Tampa Bay)

Last night might be been my last straw. I don't know how at team expects fans to stay up and watch games when they know the end result is a dejecting loss. Meanwhile guys like Mike McCarthy come trotting out on the broadcast and in the newspapers telling fans they still expect to make the playoffs. I know it's partly from a business stand point so that tickets don't just stop selling. But to be honest, it's no fun spending $50 knowing when you walk in the building that the percentage you're going to see a win is piss poor.

I just don't know what to do any more as fan. They can't blow the whole thing up. But this pattern cannot continue either. I'm just extremely frustrated and have to vent...
Last edited by strocklen083 on Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: W. T. F.

Postby kodos » Fri Jan 08, 2010 9:59 am

The bitter truth is that our youngsters aren't as good as we like to think they are. It's been so long since we've had any young talent worth even half a piss that as soon as we got a handful of decent young players the whole city acted like we were going to be the next Penguins.

The whole rebuilding thing is great and all, but the elephant in the room is that there are at least 5 or 6 teams in the West doing the exact same thing, and they had a head start on us and have a much better core of young players to build on.

The other sad truth is that in this new salary cap era, teams can't put together amazing teams and keep them together for more then a few years. It's not like we're going to be able to build this amazing core of guys and then be great for a decade. It just doesn't work like that anymore. These days teams can go from cup contenders to bottom feeders in one year... and the opposite is also true.

It's very frustrating... and the bottom line is that their are 30 other teams all trying to do the exact same thing and the odds of this cursed shitty team ever winning a god damn thing is almost zippo.

I've been watching this team for 20 years now and the best I've ever sen them do is flaming out like little bitches in the third round. Let me repeat that... IN 20+ YEARS, I HAVE NEVER SEEN MY FAVORITE TEAM GET PAST THE THE THIRD ROUND...

Sigh.

I'm close to giving up on them now. No amount of picks or losing is going to turn them into a contender... and this squad of guys isn't winning shit. I don't even know what you do at this point. How do you fix this shit? What isn't wrong with this team?
Last edited by kodos on Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:08 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: W. T. F.

Postby Nyghtewynd » Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:00 am

That question will be answered by what the front office does in the next few months for ticket holders. Before the year started, they seemed to think that everyone would buy in because of the supposed improved product. Now that that has been shown to be a mirage, they're going to have to work pretty hard. Otherwise, when I compare the amount of money I'm spending on tickets for the Blues' product when compared to a couple other options I have, they're going to have a fight on their hands to automatically get me back next year. And I'm guessing that I'm not the only one.
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Re: W. T. F.

Postby northwest dave » Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:19 am

I'm surprised there hasn't been a trade yet this year. Last year, JD and Pleau made a deal that not only worked, but added a sense that they cared.

This team is so frustrating to watch. I knew going in that the kids would take some time to excel. I'm ok with that. What other teams seem to have with their youth movement is a small group of veterans that actually carry the team. With the lack of production from Boyes and Kariya, this team will fail until the kids hopefully get good enough to make it their own.

But there is a long ways to go.

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Re: W. T. F.

Postby thedoc » Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:24 am

Don't give up the ship just yet guys the it's not over. "Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor"?

ps. we have like a 1% chance of making the playoffs....so it might be close to over. But not just yet.
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Re: W. T. F.

Postby Oz-iz-God » Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:56 am

Surprise surprise - we got unlucky.

In the year we got the #1 overall pick there wasn't a franchise-changing player in the draft. There were no Ovechkins or Crosbys or even Malkins to be had. EJ was the right pick, IMO, but he simply isn't a guy that's going to turn your team around in this NHL.

We then compounded bad luck with bad contracts to our own players - namely Brewer and Jackman - arguably because of our coach's emphasis on 'veteran presence'. Then came the Kariya contract...oops.

We have a roster full of guys that are great values for where they were picked (Oshie, Berglund, Polak, Perron, Backes) but we simply didn't do enough things right in addition to those value picks to progress and we STILL haven't found a viable long-term goalie.

It's like the entire organeyezation has a blind spot for the netminder.
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Re: W. T. F.

Postby kodos » Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:06 am

Even Johnson, as good as he is, isn't that much better then a few other young Dmen breaking into the league right now. When you look at the last 10 #1 picks, and then look at what we got... it becomes very obvious that we got completely ****ed.

It takes a defenseman 5 or 6 years to really become a dominant player in the league, whereas a young offensive dynamo can start contributing in a year or two.
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Re: W. T. F.

Postby JWatt (formerly PMS) » Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:08 am

The problem is that we missed out on Stamkos!

Just be patient. The young guys (Berglund, Oshie, Perron, Johnson) aren't even in their mid-20s yet. We have at least 4 more years control over each of them. Our young defensemen (Pietrangelo, Cole) aren't even here yet. We still have more young forwards (Eller, Palushaj, McRae) on the way. Give it another couple years. We just need to get lucky with a pick or a move here or there and we could be really good. Remeber where we came from. We had 0 NHL talent and 0 prospects. Remeber when our best prospects were Stempniak, Backes, and Schwarz?
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Re: W. T. F.

Postby gaijin » Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:21 am

kodos wrote:Even Johnson, as good as he is, isn't that much better then a few other young Dmen breaking into the league right now. When you look at the last 10 #1 picks, and then look at what we got... it becomes very obvious that we got completely ****ed.

It takes a defenseman 5 or 6 years to really become a dominant player in the league, whereas a young offensive dynamo can start contributing in a year or two.


That's what burns me. Nothing against EJ, but if you could have chosen any year in the last 10 for the Blues to finish last and get the #1 overall pick, which year would you have chosen? The year with Crosby? The year with Ovechkin? Stamkos? Tavares? Or the year with Eric Johnson?

Granted, there's nothing we can do about any of that. But it just figures, doesn't it? :facepalm:
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Re: W. T. F.

Postby TheoSqua » Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:26 am

This team is young still, this happens a lot in the NHL.

The Coyotes in 07-08 finished with 83 points and most thought they were a young team on the up and up. Last season they finished with 79 points and were considered a disappointment. This season they're already at 50 points, and 4th in the division.

Chicago was supposed to turn it around for several seasons, and it tool until last season for them to finally become playoff caliber.

The Penguins went to the Finals and lost in 07-08, and after two 100+ point seasons stumbled badly during the beginning last season. Then turned it on and won the cup and are on pace for 110+ points this season.

The Sharks came back from the lockout with a promising young team that won the division, and it took them 3 seasons to win the division again.

The Flyers were terrible after the lockout, turned it around with two 4th place showings, and this season, after reinforcing their lineup with the likes of Chris Pronger, are on pace for a 17 point drop.

There's tons of examples of primarily young teams playing inconsistently a season or two after it was thought they were starting to peak. It's just a part of building a team with young players.

I think the Blues are still progressing, they're just young and inconsistent. The only offensive players I feel that are playing like they were expected are McDonald and Tkachuck. Everyone else on our team is young or regressing veterans. I was highly optimistic about this team coming into the season, but the results thus far really aren't unheard of or that surprising.

Of our top 9 forwards, here's some of their ages: 27, 25, 25, 26, 21, 21. On our defense: 21 28 26 23

So a young team being inconsistant in one of the toughest divisions i've seen in 10 years? Not surprised.

Even "vets" like Boyes and Backes are 27 and 25, not exactly ages defined for their consistency.
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Re: W. T. F.

Postby DaDitka » Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:31 am

The bitter truth is that our youngsters aren't as good as we like to think they are.


Well Bergie got off to a poor start, but there was no reason for anyone to expect more from DP or Oshie then we've seen so far. David has been a 13-15 goal scorer each of his first tow seasons and people were expect 30 goals out of him. That was ridiculous. He’s one pace to set a career high in goals so you shouldn’t be too disappointed. With Oshie, I have no clue why everyone was expecting some kid of huge offensive output. That’s not really his game or strong suit. Johnson has been one of your top scorers so he hasn’t disappointed.

I think the problem was management expecting too much out of Boyes, Paulie, and Walt. And for not admitting that Backes’ output last year was probably a career year, not what you can expect from him every year.

IMO, it’s not the kids. It’s the lack of production from the above vets and the complete inability to produce from roster spots such as Crombeen, Winchester, and Janseen.

Armstrong should stay up here, Stastny should get more shifts, Cam should be released and Crombeen and Winchester should become emergency options.

Our unbeleavable goaltending in the second half last year masked the warts of this offense and now that Mason can’t stop a beach ball, we pretend to be surprised by our lack of talent.
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Re: W. T. F.

Postby kodos » Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:49 am

But that's just the thing. People are acting like our youngsters are going to turn the whole franchise around, when the truth is that all we really have is a bunch of players who will turn into good depth guys.

Meanwhile, other teams are rebuilding around young superstars and young guys who are going to be good depth guys.

EJ might eventually be a superstar, but not until he's in his late 20s.

I know that things can turn around quick, but I'm officially pulling the plug on this season. It's all over.

And until I see some signs that next season is going to be different, I don't have a lot to get excited about.
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Re: W. T. F.

Postby DaDitka » Fri Jan 08, 2010 12:18 pm

kodos wrote:But that's just the thing. People are acting like our youngsters are going to turn the whole franchise around, when the truth is that all we really have is a bunch of players who will turn into good depth guys.

Meanwhile, other teams are rebuilding around young superstars and young guys who are going to be good depth guys.

EJ might eventually be a superstar, but not until he's in his late 20s.

I know that things can turn around quick, but I'm officially pulling the plug on this season. It's all over.



Agreed with all this...

kodos wrote:And until I see some signs that next season is going to be different, I don't have a lot to get excited about.



I'm still excited about next year, but I believe we are still at least a few years from contending for a Cup.
But I think it will be a lot of fun watching EJ grow, hopefully watching Bergie blossom, Oshie play a little more even, and hopefully maybe a young surprise or two.

Not to mention, who isn’t excited about watching the end of the Brewer era and maybe even the Jackman era?
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Re: W. T. F.

Postby kodos » Fri Jan 08, 2010 12:20 pm

I't not like I'm going to stop watching. I'm too stupid to do that.
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Re: W. T. F.

Postby WaukeeBlues » Fri Jan 08, 2010 12:40 pm

Berglund, Perron, Oshie, etc aren't bad players. Far from it. The critical difference is that they aren't guys you build championship teams around. That's the difference. Contrary to some of your opinions, I absolutely think that Perron and Berglund's got 30 goals in them. It's just not going to happen all the time. Assuming they each play 15ish years I could conceivably see them potting 30 maybe 3-4 times. Crosby and Ovechkin will be out there doing it 15 and that's the critical difference. Those are guys you build cup teams around.

And has already been pointed out, the Blues had the misfortune of having two top 3 picks void of that kind of player.

At the same time though, look at Carolina, the Ducks, (heaven help me) the Red Wings, the Devils... it's not like they were oozing in first overall picks before winning cups, they just had a perfect blend of dynamic veterans and youthful scoring support.

Which, as several of you have pointed out, there is nothing "dynamic" about nearly any of our veteran talent. McDonald is about the only one i can think of off the top of my head that hasn't been a disappointment. Boyes is doing okay too, though he is the quietest goal scorer in the league.

Just be patient. The young guys (Berglund, Oshie, Perron, Johnson) aren't even in their mid-20s yet. We have at least 4 more years control over each of them. Our young defensemen (Pietrangelo, Cole) aren't even here yet. We still have more young forwards (Eller, Palushaj, McRae) on the way. Give it another couple years. We just need to get lucky with a pick or a move here or there and we could be really good. Remeber where we came from. We had 0 NHL talent and 0 prospects. Remeber when our best prospects were Stempniak, Backes, and Schwarz?


This. This. A hundred times. This. I hate to say it, but last year was a fluke. The team got really really hot at the right time and that's about it. We're not there yet. It pains me to say and I'm just as frustrated as the rest of you but its the truth. I don't remember the last team the Blues actually beat. That's abysmal.

Now I'm going to go cry in the corner with my bluenote t-shirt, whimpering to myself.
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Re: W. T. F.

Postby kodos » Fri Jan 08, 2010 12:51 pm

WaukeeBlues wrote:Berglund, Perron, Oshie, etc aren't bad players. Far from it. The critical difference is that they aren't guys you build championship teams around. That's the difference. Contrary to some of your opinions, I absolutely think that Perron and Berglund's got 30 goals in them. It's just not going to happen all the time. Assuming they each play 15ish years I could conceivably see them potting 30 maybe 3-4 times. Crosby and Ovechkin will be out there doing it 15 and that's the critical difference. Those are guys you build cup teams around.

And has already been pointed out, the Blues had the misfortune of having two top 3 picks void of that kind of player.

At the same time though, look at Carolina, the Ducks, (heaven help me) the Red Wings, the Devils... it's not like they were oozing in first overall picks before winning cups, they just had a perfect blend of dynamic veterans and youthful scoring support.

Which, as several of you have pointed out, there is nothing "dynamic" about nearly any of our veteran talent. McDonald is about the only one i can think of off the top of my head that hasn't been a disappointment. Boyes is doing okay too, though he is the quietest goal scorer in the league.

Just be patient. The young guys (Berglund, Oshie, Perron, Johnson) aren't even in their mid-20s yet. We have at least 4 more years control over each of them. Our young defensemen (Pietrangelo, Cole) aren't even here yet. We still have more young forwards (Eller, Palushaj, McRae) on the way. Give it another couple years. We just need to get lucky with a pick or a move here or there and we could be really good. Remeber where we came from. We had 0 NHL talent and 0 prospects. Remeber when our best prospects were Stempniak, Backes, and Schwarz?


This. This. A hundred times. This. I hate to say it, but last year was a fluke. The team got really really hot at the right time and that's about it. We're not there yet. It pains me to say and I'm just as frustrated as the rest of you but its the truth. I don't remember the last team the Blues actually beat. That's abysmal.

Now I'm going to go cry in the corner with my bluenote t-shirt, whimpering to myself.


There is a big difference between "not there yet" and the crap we're seeing this year. Not there yet to what? Being a team that can make the playoffs a few years in a row? Because right now even that seems like a pipe dream.

If you take the second half of last year away, this team has been consistently HORRID since the lockout. We have 4 seasons of complete and utter garbage with next to no real signs of improvement, with an insane miracle somewhere in the middle.
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Re: W. T. F.

Postby not_a_wings_fan » Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:44 pm

Go look through the history of this league and others and you will be surprised to find out that many, many, many young teams that "sneak" into the playoffs in their respective sports take a step backwards the following year. They learn more about being a consistent professional from the step back than they did the year they had success, and that often propels the teams to greater success.

I look at this year as a normal step in the maturation of this team, and I think it's very important for the management to stay the course. It is way too early to give up on the young folks, but if you could move a package that includes some or all of Brewer, Jackman, Sydor, Walt, or Kariya for a top end talent you take it. Otherwise you wait until free agency, re-evaluate your players, and fill holes.

This season isn't unexpected, imo. It sucks, but it isn't unexpected.
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Re: W. T. F.

Postby DaDitka » Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:50 pm

WaukeeBlues wrote:Contrary to some of your opinions, I absolutely think that Perron and Berglund's got 30 goals in them.


I certainly agree that Berglund could be a 30 goal scorer.

Perron..........maybe.

Either way, 30 goal guys are nice, but you need more than one or two, and 40 - 45 + guy too.

At least 3 or 4 guys you KNOW will net 30 - 40 each year.

It's not like one 30 goal guy and 3 20 goal guys are going to get the job done year in and year out.

Not to mention, you add a 40 goal guy and a 30 goal guy...that pushes a 20 goal guy down a line and he may get better match-ups and net 30 that year (you never know).

Of course, it may not matter at all if you can't get good goaltending.
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Re: W. T. F.

Postby dmiles2186 » Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:34 pm

The best and worst thing that happened to this team was that they made the playoffs. It showed that these players had the talent, skill and drive to lead a team into the playoffs. The problem is, expectations went through the roof and folks were expecting a Blackhawks-type turnaround when they should have known that wasn't going to happen. Expectations can stunt growth. It filters down and when your team's marketing slogan indicates that the fans are the last piece, the players know they have to get it done, no excuses. Younger players who should be given time to develop and not depended on to take a team to the promised land are now feeling pressure, picking up bad habits, making mistakes, all because it's not about growth, but about winning at all costs.

Not saying this is exactly what happened. But it reminds me of the Illinois football team that made the Rose Bowl a few years ago. They came out of nowhere, shocked everyone, got blasted in the 'postseason,' and regressed the very next season. Expectations ate them up.

I'm probably completely wrong on this. But I was worried about this exact same thing happening. I'm not just saying that now that it has happened. I was cautious but excited at the return of EJ and Paulie. But usually when things seem so easy on paper, like those two coming back and putting this team over the top, it's anything but easy.

There's still time. But the West is tough. I'm interested to see how this team responds in the offseason. Kariya will be gone. Tkachuk? Winchester? Mason? Will they be able to move Brewer or Jackman? Will Kariya's 6 mil free up some space to go get a proven, younger goal scorer?

Or have the Blues missed out on great opportunities over the last few years, and when everyone thought they were leading the rebuilding teams, were they slowly being passed by because a lack of a superstar offensive player?
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Re: W. T. F.

Postby A-Yo! » Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:05 pm

I have scratched my head as much as anyone when it comes to this team but the key is and I hate to use business buzz words but it's synergy. There is no connectivity between the vets and the yoot. It seems like both the yoot and the vets are looking at the other saying "HEY! Go do something will ya!" And the fact that Mason is NOT a number one goalie is so spot on! Same with Conklin. Can we stop with the buying of someone else's throw aways please?

The management got paid last year. Caught the lightning in a bottle and it has helped them with ticket sales and overall buzz around town. Now that the team is coming back to true form, the old "value" route doesn't wash anymore. You can run all the Jon Hamm commercials you want the bottom line is that this city is hungry for a champion and "you are going to have to give to gain." Ooooh, a Caron quote! LOL

Make the "blockbuster" move or at a blockbuster by STL standards and move Kariya, Walt and Jackman while doing us all a big favor by letting go the dead weight of Winchester, Crombeen and Cam.

I think Murray's influence has made the yoot lose some of their swag. Maybe now, they can get that back knowing that if they mess up, they won't get banished to no ice time hell...
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