Screw Miller

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Re: Screw Miller

Postby sseagle » Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:47 pm

They may be Belgian now, but this is a BUDWEISER TOWN! (aka EWW MILLER)
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Re: Screw Miller

Postby tjk002 » Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:02 am

Halak, Paaarvi, Stewart & Cole for Miller and Ehrhoff.

Clear salary cap and make room for Jaskin.
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Re: Screw Miller

Postby dmiles2186 » Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:20 am

For a rebuilding team, I'm not sure how Buffalo would be too keen on taking on underachievers like Berglund, Stewart, or Schmaltz. Maybe I'm wrong and they will take some combo of them, I'm not sure. But if I'm giving up a former Vezina winner, one of the best goalies in the league, and I'm a rebuilding team, I don't know how a Stewart or a Berglund would help me in the long run. It always depends on the GM, I guess. If we can get Miller for pennies on the dollar Pronger-style, then more power to Army.
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Re: Screw Miller

Postby ViPeRx007 » Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:07 pm

Oaklandblue wrote:Okay, I'm going to say this right now and this is just a prediction: We're getting Miller.

Now, I am outright against the idea as we could do better than Ryan Miller or just run Halak in the playoffs and see if he really is The One True Goalie for real, but the stars are aligned for the moment and at the moment he is the go-to guy. I've sat down and read through forums and other teams fans (Ducks, Kings, etc.) are outright scared if we acquire Miller. Everyone seems to think he's the missing piece of our puzzle, rental or otherwise. I sat down to think about it and the truth is that swapping Miller for Halak is the best of both worlds for both players. Halak was built for the East and he would be happier and would perform amazingly well there. Trading him to the Sabres is an absolute no-brainer because they're not going anywhere and we won't have to deal with them this year. Miller's GAA with the Sabres, who are on route to have the lowest scoring team in NHL HISTORY, says enough about him. I don't like it, to be quite honest, but I want to win the Cup, so I'll set my personal opinions aside. Frankly, I'd rather have Tim Thomas and I figure we'd pay as much for either rental, BUT...saying that...Miller is known to be a boost for the clubhouse, leads and takes his position seriously, and he's much younger than Thomas.

Saying all of that, if Army does make a move with Halak, it's not due to confidence but asset management. We know Halak will ask for more money and we've already rode the train for long enough. Truth is, he can't stay healthy. We land in the same situation with Miller, and if we can win the Cup with him onboard, he will stay and we can discuss extensions then. Right now, we're favored and with him, everyone is saying we are THE team to beat. For Ryan Miller, there is no better stop than in a city that has never won a Cup, and if he wins it here, he will be worshipped like a damn God.

And we all know this.

Saying all of that again, I'd ship Chris Stewart, Halak and a pick with a conditional second if we win the Cup for him. Worst case scenario we break even with the money end and that will help sign Miller, if he proves to have the goods.

If we acquire Miller, this is how we should handle it. Give Buffalo a roster player with Halak and picks. Knowing Army, if we get him, it's going to be a great deal for us. Otherwise, Army won't deal. Worse case scenario we run Halak/Elliott with Allen in the wings. And considering things, that ain't bad at all.


This right here is exactly why we should take a chance on Miller if the price is right. The boost he'd get by coming into this situation could be huge for him as well as the entire team. From what I've read and seen from Miller, he seems like a gamer and is passionate. That attitude can be contagious (hopefully as contagious as that flu bug going around the locker room). Sometimes it seems like our goalies (Halak especially) just lose interest at times. Maybe it's just his personality, maybe it's just my perception. I do like Halak though, he's done well and it would be great to see him take us through the playoffs too, but like I've said before, neither him or Elliott seem to have the fire to really take the #1 spot by the balls and run with it. That does concern me somewhat, especially for when the playoffs roll around.

It'll be interesting to see what happens.
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Re: Screw Miller

Postby glen a richter » Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:05 pm

Army got Jay Bouwmeester for effectively a whole lot of nothing. To suppose he couldn't get Miller for a package that included (and I'll sweeten the pot from what I previously proposed): Halak (obviously the whole point is to replace him, so he's central to the deal), Stewart, Berglund, Schmaltz and Hakanpaa and a draft pick to boot is extremely generous for Buffalo. Then Jaskin can come up full time, as could Sergei Andronov if they felt so inclined to recall him, or put the CPR line back together for the playoffs (not a bad idea) and sign a free agent forward in the offseason (Matt Moulson comes to mind or include him in the deal with Miller, as does Lee Stempniak, and possibly but unlikely to be available, Ryan Callahan). As far as giving up Schmaltz and Hakanpaa, this team is so deep in defense for the long term, I see no immediate problem with including two d-men in the deal. Pie, Shat and Bouw are locked up long term, Cole and Polak will probably be sticking around a while. Jackman and Leopold are most likely to leave soon but we still have Edmundson, Shields, Fairchild and Vanelli en route plus whatever they end up doing in the draft.

It's not over paying in any event. To most observers it'll look like that, but we all know that Stew and Berglund leaving the team would be a positive step forward. They may even thrive in the Easy Conference where defense is not important whatsoever.
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Re: Screw Miller

Postby glen a richter » Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:29 pm

For what it's worth... http://www.sbnation.com/nhl/2013/11/6/5 ... ade-clause

Didn't Brodeur sign an RFA offer sheet with the Blues many many years ago which was (obviously) matched by NJ? Seems a distant memory but I do recall something like that. I know the idea was pooh-pooed when I suggested Brodeur before, but he's a true one run rental with Cup experience and could be had cheaper than Miller if the size of the return package was the sticking point. Not that New Jersey really has a need for Halak with Schneider locked up. They could flip him in the offseason (or right away) to Minnesota, since the Wild are looking for an upgrade in goal.

Perhaps a 3 team deal:

To NJ: Berglund (from St. Louis) and Jonas Brodin (from Minnesota) + mid round draft picks from both teams.
To St. Louis: Brodeur (from NJ) + Minnesota's 1st round pick.
To Minnesota: Halak (from St. Louis via NJ) and Leopold (from St. Louis) + St. Louis' 1st round pick.

Obviously I'm just pulling shit out of my ass here, and three way trades confuse the hell out of me sometimes. But it's worth a try as a conversation starter (and probably conversation ender).
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Re: Screw Miller

Postby kodos » Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:35 pm

I think we're overvaluing Miller here.

He's a pending UFA. Unless there is some sort of guarantee of resigning, it doesn't make sense to give much up for him.

Goalies just don't have that much trade value. I think he could fetch a 1st round pick and a few crappy prospects or a few decent prospects and that's about it.

Anything more seems crazy to me.
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Re: Screw Miller

Postby glen a richter » Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:45 pm

kodos wrote:I think we're overvaluing Miller here.

He's a pending UFA. Unless there is some sort of guarantee of resigning, it doesn't make sense to give much up for him.

Goalies just don't have that much trade value. I think he could fetch a 1st round pick and a few crappy prospects or a few decent prospects and that's about it.

Anything more seems crazy to me.



It's a shame that the Rangers pulled themselves back into contention after the beginning of the season disaster they endured. We could have snagged Lundqvist AND Callahan in a trade pretty easily, I'm sure.
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Re: Screw Miller

Postby tjk002 » Thu Jan 30, 2014 10:51 am

So this is the deal that I was told last night. From a semi decent source.

Halak & either Stewart or Berglund, plus Rattie, Cole and a first round pick.

Seems way too much to give up to me.
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Re: Screw Miller

Postby kodos » Thu Jan 30, 2014 2:05 pm

That deal is laughable. That's like trading 2 first round picks and two decent roster players for a rental.

If Miller was 29 and signed to a 5 million deal for the next 6 years it would still be overpayment. But he's an unrestricted free agent.
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Re: Screw Miller

Postby tjk002 » Thu Jan 30, 2014 2:20 pm

Thats part of the deal. Has to agree to a long term deal for those players and pick involved.
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Re: Screw Miller

Postby kodos » Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:10 pm

It's still stupid.

Halak and a #1, or Halak and a decent prospect/young player is the best they should get. Anything more than that and forget it.
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Re: Screw Miller

Postby ViPeRx007 » Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:27 pm

That's kind of a slap in the face to Halak. It makes it look like he's a chump, and he's certainly not. Halak for Miller straight up isn't really THAT much different is it? I think there's enough difference to where I'd feel more comfortable with Miller, sure, but to warrant 3 additional players and a pick? That's lunacy. Like kodos said, maybe one more extra player should be all they get.
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Re: Screw Miller

Postby Oaklandblue » Thu Jan 30, 2014 6:50 pm

ViPeRx007 wrote:That's kind of a slap in the face to Halak. It makes it look like he's a chump, and he's certainly not. Halak for Miller straight up isn't really THAT much different is it? I think there's enough difference to where I'd feel more comfortable with Miller, sure, but to warrant 3 additional players and a pick? That's lunacy. Like kodos said, maybe one more extra player should be all they get.


Miller:

* Won the Vezina for best goaltender
* Has a save percentage 10+ points higher than Halak at .926 on not only the worst team in the league, but a team on track to be the lowest scoring team in NHL History
* Is known for being a major presence of leadership in the lockerroom and takes his position as goaltender as a calling, not as a paycheck.

Halak, while in Blue:

* Is a no-show to the playoffs in the last two years and the one game he played in, he lost.
* Owns ZERO franchise records.
* Has only ONE NHL Award to his name - that he shares with Brian Elliott.

Elliott, while in Blue:

*Was an All-Star
*Owns 3 Franchise Records: Best Save % in a season, Lowest GAA in a season and Most Shutouts in a Season.
*Played VERY well in the playoffs in the last two years and gave us a chance to win the majority of games he played in (his save% was .904 and .914 last year.).
* Won the Jennings with Jaro.

And yet, Elliott is the backup?


To make this short, the one slapping anyone in the face, has been Halak slapping us and he's been doing that with a 4m a year paycheck, while quite possibly feigning injury.
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Re: Screw Miller

Postby glen a richter » Thu Jan 30, 2014 7:04 pm

To be fair, when Elliott had the chance to be the #1 while Halak was injured, he fell flat on his ass and had to be bailed out by Allen. So the one being slapped in the face is Allen who's languishing in Chicago when he should rightfully have a spot on the big club. Elliott only does well when he's being pushed by someone else, no matter how good or lousy that someone else may be. When he has to be in the #1 spot and knows it, he folds like a cheap tent. Either our goalie situation stays as is or we upgrade the #1. Anything that puts Elliott in the #1 role is destined to backfire. As a 1B or 2 he's head and shoulders above the rest. As a 1 or 1A, we'll regret that for a long time.
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Re: Screw Miller

Postby Oaklandblue » Thu Jan 30, 2014 7:30 pm

glen a richter wrote:To be fair, when Elliott had the chance to be the #1 while Halak was injured, he fell flat on his ass and had to be bailed out by Allen. So the one being slapped in the face is Allen who's languishing in Chicago when he should rightfully have a spot on the big club. Elliott only does well when he's being pushed by someone else, no matter how good or lousy that someone else may be. When he has to be in the #1 spot and knows it, he folds like a cheap tent. Either our goalie situation stays as is or we upgrade the #1. Anything that puts Elliott in the #1 role is destined to backfire. As a 1B or 2 he's head and shoulders above the rest. As a 1 or 1A, we'll regret that for a long time.


Jake Allen is going to be amazing when we finally get him solid NHL playing time.

As for Elliott, regular season BOTH netminders needed Jake to bail them out, but when it came to the point where it REALLY MATTERS, that .914 Ells posted in the playoffs last year ain't "Folding up like a tent". No one scored for him. That's the truth.

Jake Allen isn't being paid 4m a year and Elliott shouldn't be held accountable because the team couldn't find the back of a net.

These two guys above showed up and played.

Halak's sitting half the time previously "With injury" collecting a 4m a year check while Elliott does the heavy lifting and Jake Allen is waiting for someone to move over so he can get into the fight.

My vote for roadblock goes to Halak. Elliott has shown and posted enough recognition to deserve to stay, even as a backup. What good is a goalie that doesn't show up or in Halak's case, comes off the IR, saying he's ready to go and then oops, he's back on the IR again. You want to trust a guy like that?

He's had a great season this year, but that's not saying much, if we're juding this by his total stay in the STL, due to him being injured quite abit, so we don't have a reliable barometer to judge him by. From what I've seen this season, he is performing at the top of his abilities and even those aren't as good as someone like Miller, Quick or Thomas.

Halak is a good goaltender, he's not an Elite goaltender.
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Re: Screw Miller

Postby cardsfan04 » Thu Jan 30, 2014 7:33 pm

Oaklandblue wrote:
ViPeRx007 wrote:That's kind of a slap in the face to Halak. It makes it look like he's a chump, and he's certainly not. Halak for Miller straight up isn't really THAT much different is it? I think there's enough difference to where I'd feel more comfortable with Miller, sure, but to warrant 3 additional players and a pick? That's lunacy. Like kodos said, maybe one more extra player should be all they get.


Miller:

* Won the Vezina for best goaltender
* Has a save percentage 10+ points higher than Halak at .926 on not only the worst team in the league, but a team on track to be the lowest scoring team in NHL History
* Is known for being a major presence of leadership in the lockerroom and takes his position as goaltender as a calling, not as a paycheck.

Halak, while in Blue:

* Is a no-show to the playoffs in the last two years and the one game he played in, he lost.
* Owns ZERO franchise records.
* Has only ONE NHL Award to his name - that he shares with Brian Elliott.

Elliott, while in Blue:

*Was an All-Star
*Owns 3 Franchise Records: Best Save % in a season, Lowest GAA in a season and Most Shutouts in a Season.
*Played VERY well in the playoffs in the last two years and gave us a chance to win the majority of games he played in (his save% was .904 and .914 last year.).
* Won the Jennings with Jaro.

And yet, Elliott is the backup?


To make this short, the one slapping anyone in the face, has been Halak slapping us and he's been doing that with a 4m a year paycheck, while quite possibly feigning injury.


I agree that Miller is better than Halak, but that's a pretty slanted description of the three.

-I'll give ya the Vezina and save percentage as part of agreeing that he's better than Halak. Although it's worth noting that an extra .011 in save percentage works out to about 1 fewer goal every 100 shots (or 4 games given the Blues' 25.3/game). That could be good
-Miller "takes his position as goaltender as a calling, not as a paycheck." I don't even know what this means, or at least how it could be objectively backed up.
-Halak didn't have bad playoff performances. He got hurt. Durability is a concern for him, but you make it sound like he choked.
-Franchise records are pretty flimsy. But, if we're going down that road, he holds the Blues record for most career shutouts.
-I don't see how you can mention playoff performances without mentioning Halak taking an 8 seed within 1 win of the Cup Finals.
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Re: Screw Miller

Postby cardsfan04 » Thu Jan 30, 2014 7:36 pm

As for the trade mentioned above, it's way way way too much. I'd love to do Halak + Berglund or Stewart. That should be enough. And I'd like to think that the two of them are young enough to be intriguing. If not, I could go for Halak + a prospect. Halak+ Rattie maybe, but only if we have an extension in place at the time of the trade.
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Re: Screw Miller

Postby Oaklandblue » Thu Jan 30, 2014 7:41 pm

cardsfan04 wrote:
Oaklandblue wrote:
ViPeRx007 wrote:That's kind of a slap in the face to Halak. It makes it look like he's a chump, and he's certainly not. Halak for Miller straight up isn't really THAT much different is it? I think there's enough difference to where I'd feel more comfortable with Miller, sure, but to warrant 3 additional players and a pick? That's lunacy. Like kodos said, maybe one more extra player should be all they get.


Miller:

* Won the Vezina for best goaltender
* Has a save percentage 10+ points higher than Halak at .926 on not only the worst team in the league, but a team on track to be the lowest scoring team in NHL History
* Is known for being a major presence of leadership in the lockerroom and takes his position as goaltender as a calling, not as a paycheck.

Halak, while in Blue(2):

* Is a no-show to the playoffs in the last two years and the one game he played in, he lost.
* Owns ZERO franchise records.
* Has only ONE NHL Award to his name - that he shares with Brian Elliott.

Elliott, while in Blue:

*Was an All-Star
*Owns 3 Franchise Records: Best Save % in a season, Lowest GAA in a season and Most Shutouts in a Season.
*Played VERY well in the playoffs in the last two years and gave us a chance to win the majority of games he played in (his save% was .904 and .914 last year.).
* Won the Jennings with Jaro.

And yet, Elliott is the backup?


To make this short, the one slapping anyone in the face, has been Halak slapping us and he's been doing that with a 4m a year paycheck, while quite possibly feigning injury.


I agree that Miller is better than Halak, but that's a pretty slanted description of the three.

-I'll give ya the Vezina and save percentage as part of agreeing that he's better than Halak. Although it's worth noting that an extra .011 in save percentage works out to about 1 fewer goal every 100 shots (or 4 games given the Blues' 25.3/game). That could be good
-Miller "takes his position as goaltender as a calling, not as a paycheck." I don't even know what this means, or at least how it could be objectively backed up.(4)
-Halak didn't have bad playoff performances. He got hurt. Durability is a concern for him, but you make it sound like he choked.(3)
-Franchise records are pretty flimsy. But, if we're going down that road, he holds the Blues record for most career shutouts.(5)
-I don't see how you can mention playoff performances without mentioning Halak taking an 8 seed within 1 win of the Cup Finals.(1)


Contrary to popular belief:

1: Halak alone did not help the Habs to the door to the finals, in fact, he was pulled several times and swapped out with Price. One can argue and it would be an honest assesment, that the Habs success came from all the players and BOTH Netminders.

2: If you noticed, I said HALAK WHILE IN BLUE. I don't care what he did for another team, how has his tenure with us gone? I don't think any Blues fan would give a damn what Halak did for anyone else as much as caring how many rings Fuhr or Gretzky or anyone else had while IN BLUE. When they play for your team, you care what they do while on your team. Winning a Cup for another team doesn't win yours a Cup, and if that success doesn't translate as such, it's a bad trade. Besides, who wants to sit there and say how great a player was a half decade ago and why, oh why, haven't they won a major NHL award and/or the Cup since then, if they're so great?

3: How does a starting netminder help a team when he never plays? Yet everyone says he's better than anyone else we got and it's simply not true. You have to play to prove that. Halak riding pine isn't helping Halak win jack.

4: Ask any Sabres fan about Ryan Miller or read some of the interviews and outlooks on him. The guy is a leader.

5: Halak is tied with Glenn Hall with 16 for #1. Brian Elliott holds the record for a single season with 9 and has 12 total and has been with the Note for one year less than Halak, just as a comparison.
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Re: Screw Miller

Postby Oaklandblue » Thu Jan 30, 2014 7:53 pm

cardsfan04 wrote:As for the trade mentioned above, it's way way way too much. I'd love to do Halak + Berglund or Stewart. That should be enough. And I'd like to think that the two of them are young enough to be intriguing. If not, I could go for Halak + a prospect. Halak+ Rattie maybe, but only if we have an extension in place at the time of the trade.


IF we got Miller, I'd go Halak + Stewart + a pick if we win the Cup and Rattie + Bergy on top of that if he signs an extension and Buffalo eats some money in the deal. We have to make room anyway for players to come up and we have to give Miller an incentive to stay (keep reading before you comment. The next two sentences are very important to this point).

It sounds like alot, but IF we go this route for Miller, we should be viewing him as a franchise netminder and if we are, we need to pay accordingly. IF not, we should look at other options or run three Netminders so we can get Allen accustomed to playing. We're far enough ahead to give Jake a few games to see where he's at. For all we know he's ready now and might be exactly what we're considering trading for.

Frankly, to get Stewart and Bergy off our ice, I'd ship them to Buffalo. I know, I'm mean, I'm just being honest. Give the people who WANT to win a shot to play.
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