Blues re-sign Steve Ott, 2 yrs; Sobotka to Omsk (KHL), 3 yrs

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Re: Blues re-sign Steve Ott, 2 yrs; Sobotka to Omsk (KHL), 3

Postby cardsfan04 » Fri Jul 11, 2014 2:25 pm

cprice12 wrote:
ecbm wrote:So: $4M (actually maybe $3M depending on who you believe) is too much for Sobotka in a league where Dave Bolland will get $27.5M over five seasons and Benoit Pouliot will get $20M over 5 seasons.

BUT

Giving $2.6M for Ott for multiple years maybe isn't an overpay in a league where you can get Jay McClement on a one-year deal for $1M. For the record, I have no tolerance for underperformers who excuse themselves by claiming injury after the fact. If you're healthy enough to play, you're healthy enough to have expectations placed on you. By the way, everyone enjoying Army's (Hitch's too I imagine) abiding fascination with aging ex-Stars who sit the bench for 45-50 minutes every game and guarantee younger players not getting a look because of their veteran status and relatively large contracts? /rant

As for "maybe the moves aren't related" - Armstrong suggested it himself.

The whole KHL thing rings like hollow rhetoric a la "we don't negotiate with terrorists." In any business you need to be aware of the possibility of your personnel being poached by competitors from anywhere. Again, NHL salary structure itself suggests Boat wasn't asking too much especially after the Blues enjoyed his services at below-market rate for a couple seasons and gave comparable (more?) money to an inferior player in Berglund.

I am a betting man and I'd bet a significant amount right now that Sobotka never plays in the NHL again. He's from Europe and has a lucrative contract in a country with significantly lower taxes that takes him through his age 30 season. Not all European hockey players are as enamored of the NHL as North Americans tend to think.

cprice12 wrote:Ott can go two different ways...he can rebound a bit from a down year, or he can continue to decline.


Can you not see how the fact that their reckoning of Sobotka was done with so very different criteria might be maddening to some? You don't think Berglund and Ott are overpaid? Pro sports is very much a "what-are-you-doing-for-me-right-now kind of business. I'll take the opportunity to point out that Armstrong has brought this club exactly as many Stanley Cups as any other GM and fewer playoff series wins than several. Just sayin'...


Dave Bolland's contract was laughed at by everyone because it was a ridiculous price to pay for him.
I'm not going to say Sobotka is worth more simply because someone decided to pay Dave Bolland over $5 million per. Dave Bolland isn't worth that much...so using it as leverage for a Sobotka contract or in an argument as a reason why Armstrong should have paid Sobotka more is disingenuous.

With that said... I feel Berglund is overpaid now. (I said that before...you must have missed it) But Army apparently disagrees, otherwise he wouldn't have signed him to that contract.
Ott being overpaid is debatable. If he rebounds a bit, he'll be worth the money.

Let's put this whole thing into perspective...
People are upset Sobotka is gone and we have Ott instead. This is a 3rd line dilema. It's not a 1st line crisis. Yes, Sobotka will be missed. But it's not like we lost Tarasenko and resigned Roy as his replacement.


We're still significantly better than we were last year.


Couldn't agree more with bolded. I would much rather have Sobotka than Ott. But, it's not like we're suddenly not Cup contenders because of this. It's a small wound. It's also worth noting that our perception is colored a bit by Sobotka having the best year of his career and Ott having the worst. The 2014-15 gap between the two could very easily be much smaller than the 2013-14 gap.
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Re: Blues re-sign Steve Ott, 2 yrs; Sobotka to Omsk (KHL), 3

Postby glen a richter » Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:02 pm

WaukeeBlues brings up a very good point. After Ott got this ridiculous contract, do you expect Schwartz to sit back and accept significantly less than he's worth just because it's all the team can afford?

The only way any of this bullshit makes sense is if Ott and Berglund are being shopped to a team desperate to reach the cap floor. Otherwise I think we may soon be seeing the last of both Schwartz and Tarasenko in the note. They'll both do great in the eastern conference, probably score 100 points/season. Imagine Tarasenko on Pittsburgh and Schwartz in NY. Disgusting, right? That's what contracts like the ones Berglund and Ott got are ensuring though.
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Re: Blues re-sign Steve Ott, 2 yrs; Sobotka to Omsk (KHL), 3

Postby flyingnote38 » Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:05 pm

seems like Sobotka's issue was less about the money than the role.
clearly Sobotka was not going to be a top 6 forward on the Blues and nor should he be. He'd be a solid 3rd liner, but clearly lacks the offensive talent to be a second liner on a legit contender.

that said the only way Ott fills Sobotka's skates is if their feet are the same size.

Ott can replace the face off ability, but clearly otherwise sucks at hockey.

If the Blues knew this was coming, and it sure seems that they did, since they had been negotiating unsuccessfully for several months and decreasing their offer both monetarily and term, they should have been more proactive in replacing Boat. For $2.7 million, we could have signed an actual hockey player, rather than our typical former ex Star dumpster dive back-up plan. In fact pretty much pick anybody who signed for $1.5 to $3 million AAV this offseason and pretty much by definition they have to be better than Ott.
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Re: Blues re-sign Steve Ott, 2 yrs; Sobotka to Omsk (KHL), 3

Postby ecbm » Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:12 pm

You need a decent third line if you want to compete and you don't have absolute world beaters in top 6, which we don't. If you don't think third liners make a difference, I doubt I'll be able to say anything to change your mind. So that's fine. I don't think Ott is nearly good enough to be on an actual contender's third line.

The money he got, along with the money Berglund got, considered along with the money they wouldn't give Sobotka, considered along with the insistence on having some over-the-hill, ineffective ex-Star on the roster every season who will dress every night regardless of how he plays suggests to me that the Blues may have a front office issue, not just a third line issue.

It's possible for even Armstrong to make mistakes or even, possibly, to be unduly stubborn about how he constructs a team. I'd be fascinated to hear him describe his misses while here. I wonder if he thinks there's been any. I really don't consider it valid to excuse anyone from critical analysis and just assume he's right all the time. Strikes me as tribalism.

I'd rather have Roy back at $2.6M per than Ott. Every day of the week. Or Ribeiro. Or just give the minutes to Porter, or Cracknell. It's like the Blues cut Ott a welfare check.

We're still significantly better than we were last year.


I'm not so convinced. I hope I'm wrong.
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Re: Blues re-sign Steve Ott, 2 yrs; Sobotka to Omsk (KHL), 3

Postby glen a richter » Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:18 pm

Everything is a miss until this team wins a Cup. Signing Ott to what he did is a miss. At BEST he should have gotten a much lower salary on a two-way contract. I don't care if it was a captain elsewhere or how good he is as faceoffs. His stats post trade scream of someone who should have to battle for his job with other guys who want it more. Phil McRae, for example. Someone mentioned him earlier, jokingly, but why the hell not? His offensive contributions couldn't be worse than Ott's will be. And how many chirpers do you really need on a contending team anyway?
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Re: Blues re-sign Steve Ott, 2 yrs; Sobotka to Omsk (KHL), 3

Postby Jackman5 » Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:19 pm

Ott should be fine. Good on face-offs and was good for the Blues in the playoffs. Seems like Sobotka wanted too much money for a bottom 6 forward. Good luck to him on those airplanes in Russia. Berglund better start performing for the money he's making (which is too much).
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Re: Blues re-sign Steve Ott, 2 yrs; Sobotka to Omsk (KHL), 3

Postby ecbm » Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:21 pm

flyingnote38 wrote:Sobotka was not going to be a top 6 forward on the Blues and nor should he be.


You're right about the role being an issue and this assertion may be right. But to give the full context: Armstrong said Backes would go back to the wing after we signed Stastny and Lehtera. So it seems the front office and a lot of fans are absolutely convinced Sobotka isn't a top-6 C, which may well be true, but that Jori Lehtera (0 NHL minutes) DEFINITELY is a top-6 C. Just let me know guys, do I have that right? Hands up, who has actually seen Lehtera play more than twice? But hey, every young signing and draft pick the Blues have acquired has always worked out, right? Every good-looking player who comes from Europe translates, right?

Brandon Dubinsky has signed for just under 6M per for 6 seasons.

Also agree with glenn & waukee's point completely.
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Re: Blues re-sign Steve Ott, 2 yrs; Sobotka to Omsk (KHL), 3

Postby cardsfan04 » Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:22 pm

glen a richter wrote:WaukeeBlues brings up a very good point. After Ott got this ridiculous contract, do you expect Schwartz to sit back and accept significantly less than he's worth just because it's all the team can afford?

The only way any of this bullshit makes sense is if Ott and Berglund are being shopped to a team desperate to reach the cap floor. Otherwise I think we may soon be seeing the last of both Schwartz and Tarasenko in the note. They'll both do great in the eastern conference, probably score 100 points/season. Imagine Tarasenko on Pittsburgh and Schwartz in NY. Disgusting, right? That's what contracts like the ones Berglund and Ott got are ensuring though.


I'm fairly certain those 2 contracts will not push Schwartz/Tarasenko to other teams. Schwartz doesn't have any negotiating power this offseason for one thing. He'll basically take what he's given. In future years, I still don't see how a $2.6 mil or $3.7 mil cap hit will push them out of St. Louis. They're not going anywhere.
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Re: Blues re-sign Steve Ott, 2 yrs; Sobotka to Omsk (KHL), 3

Postby ecbm » Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:29 pm

jackman5 wrote:Ott should be fine. Good on face-offs and was good for the Blues in the playoffs


Reality?

0G, 2pts, -3, 14PIM in 6 games...and he was centering Steen & Oshie when Backes was out.

Ott season FO%: 53.8
Sobotka: 61.9

I guess "being good" roughly equals "having a pulse."

*sighs*
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Re: Blues re-sign Steve Ott, 2 yrs; Sobotka to Omsk (KHL), 3

Postby glen a richter » Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:30 pm

I'm not worried about Lehtera at all. Yes he has zero NHL experience, but he had a lot of experience at the KHL which is maybe not comparable, but still high level, AND he has a history with Tarasenko that should translate to the NHL game. Frankly, I'd be shocked if he didn't put up minimum 50 assists, probably more, on a line with Tarasenko and Schwartz. Could be the modern day Hull/Janney/Shanahan line. He's also 26, not 18. He's got the experience and entering the prime of his career. The only thing that really concerns me is the longer NHL season. The top two lines don't bother me one bit. Frankly, neither do the bottom two, except for Ott and Berglund who of course comprise fully 1/3rd of the bottom two lines. Who's cleaning up for their missteps? How much will they hold back Oshie?
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Re: Blues re-sign Steve Ott, 2 yrs; Sobotka to Omsk (KHL), 3

Postby Jackman5 » Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:32 pm

ecbm wrote:
jackman5 wrote:Ott should be fine. Good on face-offs and was good for the Blues in the playoffs


Reality?

0G, 2pts, -3, 14PIM in 6 games...and he was centering Steen & Oshie when Backes was out.

Ott season FO%: 53.8
Sobotka: 61.9

I guess "being good" roughly equals "having a pulse."

*sighs*


Yeah, you're right. They should've caved and given Sobotka that $4 million to be a bottom 6 forward who had concussion and leg issues last year. :roll:
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Re: Blues re-sign Steve Ott, 2 yrs; Sobotka to Omsk (KHL), 3

Postby glen a richter » Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:32 pm

cardsfan04 wrote:
glen a richter wrote:WaukeeBlues brings up a very good point. After Ott got this ridiculous contract, do you expect Schwartz to sit back and accept significantly less than he's worth just because it's all the team can afford?

The only way any of this bullshit makes sense is if Ott and Berglund are being shopped to a team desperate to reach the cap floor. Otherwise I think we may soon be seeing the last of both Schwartz and Tarasenko in the note. They'll both do great in the eastern conference, probably score 100 points/season. Imagine Tarasenko on Pittsburgh and Schwartz in NY. Disgusting, right? That's what contracts like the ones Berglund and Ott got are ensuring though.


I'm fairly certain those 2 contracts will not push Schwartz/Tarasenko to other teams. Schwartz doesn't have any negotiating power this offseason for one thing. He'll basically take what he's given. In future years, I still don't see how a $2.6 mil or $3.7 mil cap hit will push them out of St. Louis. They're not going anywhere.


When taking everyone else into consideration, how much money is left for both of them to re-up with the Blues and not some other team more capable of ponying up the cash they feel they deserve? One, if not both of them, will be gone because 6.3 million was wasted on two slouches.
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Re: Blues re-sign Steve Ott, 2 yrs; Sobotka to Omsk (KHL), 3

Postby glen a richter » Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:35 pm

Sobotka and Ott are two separate issues that happened to occur on the same day. Again, Boat leaving sucks, but not as bad as Ott staying. If they wanted to secure a 3rd line center they could have done a LOT better than Ott.
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Re: Blues re-sign Steve Ott, 2 yrs; Sobotka to Omsk (KHL), 3

Postby cardsfan04 » Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:26 pm

glen a richter wrote:
cardsfan04 wrote:
glen a richter wrote:WaukeeBlues brings up a very good point. After Ott got this ridiculous contract, do you expect Schwartz to sit back and accept significantly less than he's worth just because it's all the team can afford?

The only way any of this bullshit makes sense is if Ott and Berglund are being shopped to a team desperate to reach the cap floor. Otherwise I think we may soon be seeing the last of both Schwartz and Tarasenko in the note. They'll both do great in the eastern conference, probably score 100 points/season. Imagine Tarasenko on Pittsburgh and Schwartz in NY. Disgusting, right? That's what contracts like the ones Berglund and Ott got are ensuring though.


I'm fairly certain those 2 contracts will not push Schwartz/Tarasenko to other teams. Schwartz doesn't have any negotiating power this offseason for one thing. He'll basically take what he's given. In future years, I still don't see how a $2.6 mil or $3.7 mil cap hit will push them out of St. Louis. They're not going anywhere.


When taking everyone else into consideration, how much money is left for both of them to re-up with the Blues and not some other team more capable of ponying up the cash they feel they deserve? One, if not both of them, will be gone because 6.3 million was wasted on two slouches.


I'm not sure what our payroll situation will be next year. I guess a big part of it for me is that I trust Army. I think he's thinking beyond this year and don't think he would have made signings this year that would prevent him from keeping those two next year. And, if he were to do that, it seems odd that $2.6 mil and $3.7 mil would be the salaries that prevent cap space. $2.6 mil is less than the average salary per player. $3.7 mil is only slightly above. Again, I haven't looked at next year's cap situation, but it would be very un-Army-like to sign Berglund and Ott at the expense of either Schwartz or Tarasenko.
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Re: Blues re-sign Steve Ott, 2 yrs; Sobotka to Omsk (KHL), 3

Postby WaukeeBlues » Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:38 pm

Even after a night's sleep I'm still mad.

1) Sobotka leaving.... okay, it happened. Modern NHL, guys bounce from the NHL to the KHL Sucks. But it happens. Really going to miss him. Maybe Army could've done a better job in the negotiations. Maybe Sobotka could've been less ironclad. I don't know that we'll ever know. Time to move on.

2) There's a reason Steve Ott was still an UFA on July 10, 2014. Spoiler alert: It's not because he's an awesome asset.

I'm just hoping to little baby Jesus Steve Ott gels with this team, cuts it out with the turnovers (he looked awful, in my humble opinion, against Chicago, a team that you virtually HAVE to play against if you plan to win a Stanley Cup) and gets back to his 2012-2013 form, or when he was with the Stars scoring at a .5 per game clip and a healthy +/-

I still think we vastly overpaid. But... let's see what he does. Worse comes to worse he's a very expensive paperweight in the pressbox and we bring up someone on a cheap deal.
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Re: Blues re-sign Steve Ott, 2 yrs; Sobotka to Omsk (KHL), 3

Postby Misc. Blues » Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:55 pm

I find it funny that people say we paid too much for Ott...

2011 3.3M
2012 3.2M
2013 3.2M

2014 2.6M
2015 2.6M
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Re: Blues re-sign Steve Ott, 2 yrs; Sobotka to Omsk (KHL), 3

Postby APOD » Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:13 pm

cardsfan04 wrote:I'm not sure what our payroll situation will be next year. I guess a big part of it for me is that I trust Army. I think he's thinking beyond this year and don't think he would have made signings this year that would prevent him from keeping those two next year. And, if he were to do that, it seems odd that $2.6 mil and $3.7 mil would be the salaries that prevent cap space. $2.6 mil is less than the average salary per player. $3.7 mil is only slightly above. Again, I haven't looked at next year's cap situation, but it would be very un-Army-like to sign Berglund and Ott at the expense of either Schwartz or Tarasenko.


2015-2016 (why are we even discussing this now lol)

Cap will be higher

Paajarvi, Magnus » RFA- Needs to Prove something this year to stay
Lapierre, Maxim » UFA- Bye Bye
Tarasenko, V. » RFA- Will be signed
Lindstrom, Joakim » UFA- ??? only 0.7M cap hit this year
Porter, Chris » UFA- 0.65M cap hit this year
Jackman, Barret » UFA- Could retire, but if not should take less money if we keep him
Leopold, Jordan » UFA- Bye Bye
Cole, Ian » RFA- Pay the Man 1M
Allen, Jake » RFA- 1.2M?

Not sure where there is no room for Schwartz or Tarasenko?

And you don't think Berg is still trade bait, if we need to we can find him a new home and that may still be the plan.

Berg does have a NTC BUT it dosnt start till July 1st 2015 :wink:

And don't forget about a mess of prospects - Forwards - Jaskin, Rattie, Pochiro, McRae, barbashev, ect etc Defense - Shields, Edmundson, Hakanpaa
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Re: Blues re-sign Steve Ott, 2 yrs; Sobotka to Omsk (KHL), 3

Postby WaukeeBlues » Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:23 pm

Misc. Blues wrote:I find it funny that people say we paid too much for Ott...

2011 3.3M
2012 3.2M
2013 3.2M

2014 2.6M
2015 2.6M


I don't think he's worth any of those numbers.
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Re: Blues re-sign Steve Ott, 2 yrs; Sobotka to Omsk (KHL), 3

Postby APOD » Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:49 pm

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Re: Blues re-sign Steve Ott, 2 yrs; Sobotka to Omsk (KHL), 3

Postby Slim » Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:58 pm

Robb_K wrote:I'll discuss Sobotka's not re-signing with The Blues, here, together with the re-signing of Ott, because the latter event only happened because of the former.

I'm unhappy that Sobotka didn't re-sign, and chose to go to The KHL mostly because I wanted the image of The Blues around The NHL to be a team where the players are treated well, players and management have a reputation of having a solid, good relationship, and The Blues known as a team for whom players want to play. That reputation shouldn't be diminished much, as it is clear that the money offered by Armstrong was adequate and reasonable, and that the issue was strictly personal with Sobotka.

Sobotka was very glad to come to The Blues from Boston, because he had had no chance to show what he could do with that team, as there was no room for him to have a regular spot. On The Blues, he played well, and showed what he could do. THEn, this off-season, The Blues overloaded with forwards, upgrading so greatly, that he has likely has been pushed back down to a part-time role, AND part-time only-and bouncing between lower lines than last season (e.g. between 4 and 3, rather than 3 and 2. This is a step back in his career, EVEN if he could, for the first time, be a member of a true Stan;ey Cup competing team, and, if all goes right, a Stanley Cup winner.

Despite the apparent setback to his career efforts, he could have made the decision to bite that bullet, and sign with The Blues for $2.7 million (and take home $1.8 million, rather than signing for $ 3.5 million in Russia, and taking home about $2.7 million), and have a chance to be on a Stanley Cup Winner, show he's very loyal, and show The Blues he can deal with adversity, giving him a chance to "shine" in the lesser role, and making a big impression on Blues' management, for his potential UFA re-signing, or moving on to other teams to sell his loyalty and plug on under difficult circumstances attitude, as a selling point to other organisations,

I am disappointed that Sobotka didn't take the 2nd path. But, I fully understand that he felt that going to The KHL rather than accept the lesser chance to show what he can do on a high level was a better move for his career, at this point. Getting the extra $ million (after taxes) was just a bonus, but not the real reason he bolted. He had thought he had made a place on The Blues, and Blues' management "showed disloyalty to him, by bringing in several better players, and pushing him back down to fighting for a lesser place on The Blues". He didn't like that, and probably felt subconsciously, that The Blues were now being "disloyal" to him, by "tossing him out of the position he had won for himself".

As to the re-signing of Ott. I liked his stepping up of his play in the playoffs. I welcome having him as an extra asset in case of injury, and to use in the playoffs. But, at the same time, I don't like the fact that he will likely take games away from the young, developing players, and the chance to get them better integrated into the team. I'm sort of neutral on his re-signing, knowing that Sobotka was going to be gone either way.

If it were a choice The Blues could make as to having Sobotka back or having Ott in his place, I'd take Sonbotka. If it is a choice to fill Sobotka's roster spot with Ott at $2.6 million for 2 years, or another player, it would depend upon who the other player is.

If it were a choice to re-sign Ott at $1.7 million for 1 year or another player, it would be easier for me to choose Ott than at the current terms.


This.

Some of you, by reading these post, almost sound like you should be on suicide watch. I understand being upset but, the world is not coming to an end and the puck hasn't even dropped yet. Relax.
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