Jonathan Drouin requests a trade

[glen a richter]

I get the idea of salary cap concerns, but what I don't get is that if you're peddling a highly paid d-man out of necessity why is it our best (outside of Parayko) blueliner? Pietrangelo and Bouwmeester also make good money and both should go before Shattenkirk.

Also, what's the status of the salary cap for next season? Going up? If so, how much? If the concern is a "present day scenario" one where it becomes imperative to shed salary when Ott comes back because you're over the cap there are so many better ways to solve that problem than trading Shattenkirk. A good starting point would be trading Ott for a 7th round draft pick since that's about all you'll get for him.

[cprice12]

I get the idea of salary cap concerns, but what I don't get is that if you're peddling a highly paid d-man out of necessity why is it our best (outside of Parayko) blueliner? Pietrangelo and Bouwmeester also make good money and both should go before Shattenkirk.

Also, what's the status of the salary cap for next season? Going up? If so, how much? If the concern is a "present day scenario" one where it becomes imperative to shed salary when Ott comes back because you're over the cap there are so many better ways to solve that problem than trading Shattenkirk. A good starting point would be trading Ott for a 7th round draft pick since that's about all you'll get for him.

I don't think people are thinking this Shattenkirk thing through. They see a very good roster player that will be due a nice raise when he is a UFA and automatically think he is likely to be traded right NOW, which means they haven't done any research at all.

Players who are UFA's after this season and their cap hits:
Backes - $4.50 million
Brouwer - $3.667 million
Ott - $2.60 million
Brodziak - $900k
Upshall - $700k
Gunnarson - $2.950 million

Players who are RFA's after this season and their cap hits:
Schwartz - $2.35 million
Paajarvi - $595k
Edmundson - $855k

And yes, a few of these guys may be resigned (Schwartz & Edmundson are two givens right now). BUT... Shattenkirk isn't a UFA until '17-'18. There isn't even a rush to do anything with him this season anyway.

The offseason where Shattenkirk is due a raise sees these other players as UFA's:
Steen - $5.80 million
Berglund - $3.70 million
Bortuzzo - $1.050 million
Elliott - $2.50 million

There is A LOT of money available just from players coming to the end of their contracts. And A LOT can happen between now and two offseasons from now when Shattenkirk would become a UFA. The fact that some are talking about Shattenkirk being a UFA two offseasons from now and that he could be traded now, is odd...and again, I don't think the national guys have really looked at the roster and our other current contracts. If we want Shattenkirk back, we can easily make it work to keep him here...that is, if he wants to be here.

[theohall]

The salary cap issue for the Blues isn't the end of this season or next and handling UFAs/RFAs when looking at the salary cap. The issue is losing the LTIR exemption from the cap and having to account for almost 1M in cap space when the exemption no longer applies. This will happen near the All-Star break, likely after, unless someone else goes on LTIR.

I agree that the trade talks should be revolving around the guys who will be UFAs/RFAs this off-season, instead of Shattenkirk.

The bigger problem with the rumor is Eliot Friedman, mediot who everyone thinks has "insider" knowledge when he is just a mediot and he is the one fueling the Shattenkirk rumor for now. And he is one of the mediots saying things that are completely wrong - like defenseman Robby Fabbri and "potential UFA" Shattenkirk.

[ecbm]

But, with that said...I'd love for the Blues to get Drouin. He's only 20...and he's a highly skilled and highly talented player.

See this is what seems to be the missing ingredients in this dialog. Shattenkirk for Drouin? If that's a reasonable proposal I feel like I should have heard more about how awesome he is. Again, draft position doesn't really factor in. Sometimes the #3 is Matt Duchene, sometimes it's Jean-Pierre Dumont. Sometimes it's Cam Barker and sometimes it's and sometimes it's Keith Primeau. (Those are from randomly-selected years.)

Finally, I can't overlook the potential character issues. I mean, David "Every Hockey Fan in StL Hates Me" Perron never asked for a trade before scoring his 3rd NHL goal...

[cardsfan04]

I saw that they're looking for a young cost-controlled player like Fabbri and not a player about to get a big raise like Shattenkirk. "Young for young" is how they phrased it. I wouldn't trade Fabbri for him. I would do pretty much any prospect below him other than maybe Binnington though. Maybe not Parayko either.

Maybe not Parayko? Dude is going to be the best d-man this team has had in ages and you'd maybe not offer him? If they're trading Parayko we better be talking about Hedman and Stamkos.

I'm just not as high on him yet as a lot of others. He's had a really good first 40 games to his career, and I don't want to take that away from him. There's a ton to be happy about. But Jackman won the Calder, and while he's had a solid career I don't think he ever lived up to the bar that his rookie campaign set. I think it's too early to crown Parayko as a top pairing defensemen.

Parayko hasn't just been good, he has been great.
I'd say he has easily been our best defenseman this year. And it's not just a matter of him playing solid hockey, he has a certain swagger about him on the ice...like he is playing on another level. He is big, he has a long reach, he is quick, his vision is outstanding, his offensive instincts are extremely good, and he doesn't take many penalties. He reminds me a lot of Pronger in some ways.

He just has that look about him...that this isn't some flash in the pan streak he is on. He has been good everywhere...d-zone, neutral zone, o-zone. I can't say enough good things about him. He is the one who should be making $7 million per...not Petro.

On the podcast, I was complaining that he wasn't getting enough PP time, he wasn't getting enough time at the end of games when trailing, and he wasn't getting enough OT time...and that is starting to change. Now he just needs to get into the shootout when it goes 6 or 7 shooters deep. I don't think Jaskin or Brouwer should be in the shootout over Parayko...even though Brouwer scored the other night.

I know he has only played half a season in his career...but there is a LOT to be excited about with him.

I mean, I agree with all of that (mostly anyway, maybe not to the same extreme). I wasn't criticizing him or predicting him to flop. I was just saying that I don't consider him untouchable in a trade yet.

[The Flake]

I wouldn't trade him for Drouin one for one and I agree with Curt, this kid does remind me of Pronger. He has so much presence out there on the ice, he literally controls whole areas like Pronger did.

I don't know if I'd say he is our best D this year...that may be shortchanging Shatty a little bit but no one else holds a candle to him. I can't wait for his conditioning to catch up to his ability. Playing this type of grinding schedule, I'm sure is limiting his usage from the coaches perspective. Very high ceiling.

[glen a richter]

Yes, you'd have to get Stamkos too. And really, Stamkos himself has appeared to hit some sort of career ceiling. His numbers pale in comparison to what he did when he hit the scene. We're talking about a guy who has averaged .84 ppg over the last season and a half. Good, but not what he was and not worth as much as he'll get both A) in a trade and B) in his next contract.

[theohall]

Repeating what guys on the radio are saying...

Yes. Drouin has talent.
No. Yzmeran will not get what he expects for Drouin due to his draft position.

Because...

If a kid whose barely played at all in the NHL is dictating terms already to his first NHL GM, who the heck will ever control him or get anything out of him if his trade demands are met, and then, he decides he doesn't like whichever coach or system he has to play in next, doesn't like his linemates, doesn't like the weather, or whatever idiot reason he thinks up. Head case while not already in the league. He's not Eric Lindros and seems to think he should be treated as such. Good luck, kid!

Consider the NYI defenseman... asked for a trade for personal reasons, but is actually performing up to his ability while awaiting said trade. If the kid performed and didn't pull the "poor me" BS, I'd be fine with acquiring him. But he's already pulled the "poor me" act while playing on a Cup contending team and not performing up to the coach and GMs expectations.

[ecbm]

He's not Eric Lindros

Good guy to bring up. No, Drouin isn't him and I don't hear anybody claiming that. And yet, many thought at the time that Lindros was being a petulant bitch. Also, many marveled-and this was especially after the fact-at how the Flyers were fleeced by the Nordiques for him, considering the relative lack of leverage the Nordiques had as well as the fact that Lindros was totally unproven and that Forsberg alone already had a 50pt season (in 47 games) under his belt.

So I guess Fabbri could be Forsberg in this version of the story?

[cprice12]

But, with that said...I'd love for the Blues to get Drouin. He's only 20...and he's a highly skilled and highly talented player.

See this is what seems to be the missing ingredients in this dialog. Shattenkirk for Drouin? If that's a reasonable proposal I feel like I should have heard more about how awesome he is. Again, draft position doesn't really factor in. Sometimes the #3 is Matt Duchene, sometimes it's Jean-Pierre Dumont. Sometimes it's Cam Barker and sometimes it's and sometimes it's Keith Primeau. (Those are from randomly-selected years.)

Finally, I can't overlook the potential character issues. I mean, David "Every Hockey Fan in StL Hates Me" Perron never asked for a trade before scoring his 3rd NHL goal...

Yeah, Shattenkirk for Drouin would be insanely stupid.
We don't have to move his contract...not even with the cap issues we may have when guys come back. There are many, many other ways to clear cap space without dumping such a key player in Shatty.
There are guys we could waive and there are many other players we could move for picks or prospects, etc. if we had to dump salary in a pinch.
Moving Shattenkirk of all people "for cap reasons" isn't necessary at all. And if that is what is fueling the trade speculation with him, well, that's kind of ridiculous. And if there is any defenseman that should be mentioned in trade rumors, it's Pietrangelo. The return on him would be great...and I think he is overrated (too many hiccups and f-ups in his game, but everyone around the league seems to drool over him), so that would be a win-win in my eyes.

And right now, I'm not overly picky about Drouin's attitude. Maybe he is a bit of a problem player with his trade demands...I dunno. But at this point, this team needs more offense. And no, he hasn't done much yet...but he is the guy who could take off at any point, so I'll take the risk as long as we don't have to give up a lot to get him. That's the key for me. I'd give up Rattie or Jaskin and a 2nd rounder to get him, but Tampa wouldn't do that...and that's fine. I'm not wanting him at all costs. If we can get him without giving up a top prospect or an impact player on the current roster, then I'm fine with it. But like I said, that likely won't get him...but that's all I'd want to risk at this point based on Drouin's lack of production and his attitude.

[ecbm]

And right now, I'm not overly picky about Drouin's attitude.

Serious question: how'd you feel about Perron's attitude about 5 years ago? Knowing what you know now, would you have acquired him? I'd be wary of giving a premium return for a guy who might be shipped out for marginal return after a couple of productive seasons because he's a jerk.

[cardsfan04]

I got an app update listing us as one of 3-4 teams (with Preds, Ducks, maybe somebody else) with serious interest in him.

We acquired somebody from Detroit this morning. Maybe that's a depth adding move to setup a new move? Or maybe he'll be part of a deal?

[cprice12]

And right now, I'm not overly picky about Drouin's attitude.

Serious question: how'd you feel about Perron's attitude about 5 years ago? Knowing what you know now, would you have acquired him? I'd be wary of giving a premium return for a guy who might be shipped out for marginal return after a couple of productive seasons because he's a jerk.

I wasn't so much upset at Perron's attitude as I was at his play on the ice and his undisciplined & inconsistent play.
Knowing what I know now, I wouldn't acquire him because he is a disappointment on the ice.
I don't really care that much about players attitudes. I think that kind of thing is overblown, except in extreme cases where they bring the whole team down. Just bust your ass, play well and help this team win games. That's all I care about.
It's hard to get a grasp of what the exact attitude issues are when we aren't in the locker room, in closed door meetings, etc.
I thought Oshie's "attitude problems" were overblown as well. The media made a huge deal out of something that shouldn't have been a big deal, and I doubt was.

[cprice12]

A lot of people are saying a Drouin deal could go down today...and we are the front runners.

Ohhhhh, the anticipation of what we might give up...if it's true, I'm a little excited and scared at the same time.

[theohall]

And right now, I'm not overly picky about Drouin's attitude.

Serious question: how'd you feel about Perron's attitude about 5 years ago? Knowing what you know now, would you have acquired him? I'd be wary of giving a premium return for a guy who might be shipped out for marginal return after a couple of productive seasons because he's a jerk.

I wasn't so much upset at Perron's attitude as I was at his play on the ice and his undisciplined & inconsistent play.
Knowing what I know now, I wouldn't acquire him because he is a disappointment on the ice.
I don't really care that much about players attitudes. I think that kind of thing is overblown, except in extreme cases where they bring the whole team down. Just bust your ass, play well and help this team win games. That's all I care about.
It's hard to get a grasp of what the exact attitude issues are when we aren't in the locker room, in closed door meetings, etc.
I thought Oshie's "attitude problems" were overblown as well. The media made a huge deal out of something that shouldn't have been a big deal, and I doubt was.

Drouin doesn't get along with Cooper's system and his system is far more open in terms of offense than the Blues. What sense would it make putting a guy who doesn't like Cooper's system into Hitchcock's system? That's a recipe for disaster, especially with how Hitchcock handles young players he doesn't feel are cutting it. This is the very reason Drouin is asking for a trade.

I get he supposedly has this huge upside, but the fit doesn't make sense given the coach and his system which is what Drouin doesn't like about his current situation.

Pierre McGuire this morning was the one naming the Blues as a front-runner on NHL Radio and suggesting the trade could happen today. He doesn't believe the Blues are moving Shattenkirk, but believes the Blues could be dealing from their depth of big defenseman which is what Tampa needs. That segment ended with McGuire mentioning Yzerman and Armstrong have good communication and ties with each other relating back to various Team Canada Olympic teams. This is why he believes the Blues are front-runners for Drouin.

[glen a richter]

Hence the depth trade with detroit. At this point my best guess is goodbye Edmundson, goodbye Rattie, hello Drouin. Good or bad, get used to it. When Schwartz is back it could look like a genius move.

Edit: When Hitchcock is no longer the coach of this team, it would look like an even more genius move next year.

[cardsfan04]

Hence the depth trade with detroit. At this point my best guess is goodbye Edmundson, goodbye Rattie, hello Drouin. Good or bad, get used to it. When Schwartz is back it could look like a genius move.

Edit: When Hitchcock is no longer the coach of this team, it would look like an even more genius move next year.

I would make that trade and think it's reasonable value for both sides. We're deep at defense. Edumundson has been good, but we can spare him. He's also not Parayko. Rattie is alright. I think he'll have a decent career, but will never be anything special. From what little I know of Drouin, he might be special.

[ecbm]

At this point my best guess is goodbye Edmundson, goodbye Rattie, hello Drouin. Good or bad, get used to it.

At that price, I could very much get used to it. But the Blues probably won't get him for such a low price. I'll be very pleased if they do. Instantly makes up for no #1 last season plus the cupboard is pretty bare of high-end F prospects.

When Schwartz is back it could look like a genius move.

Possible. Also possible: Schwartz returned, Drouin is demoted to 3rd line duty and starts grumbling about playing time again. Which brings me to...

I wouldn't acquire him because he is a disappointment on the ice.I don't really care that much about players attitudes.

Ask any coach: those two things are intimately related. And I dare say that the reason Cooper doesn't want to play him is because of...his play on ice. I mean, they have a contract holdout getting big minutes every night. If Drouin were perceived to be doing the job he's supposed to do he'd get TOI, end of.

I wouldn't acquire him because [Perron] is a disappointment on the ice.

Hmph. I guess we all have our standards. I have no problem with his production. He's had one full season (his first, 67 games at age 19) where he had fewer points than Pajaarvi's best season (also his first, five years ago when he played 80 games). He has 61 more points than Berglund in 21 more games.

[theohall]

I wouldn't acquire him because he is a disappointment on the ice.I don't really care that much about players attitudes.

Ask any coach: those two things are intimately related. And I dare say that the reason Cooper doesn't want to play him is because of...his play on ice. I mean, they have a contract holdout getting big minutes every night. If Drouin were perceived to be doing the job he's supposed to do he'd get TOI, end of.

Statistics don't support this. He was playing on a 3rd or 4th line, averaging 1.9 points/60 minutes played, has a middle of the road CF% just over 52% which means he does play at both ends of the ice, and was only playing 10 minutes per night. That 1.9 / 60 played was better than Stamkos over the same span. On top of that, the Lightning asked him to play center in the AHL. When they call him up, he only plays on the wing. What??? When an offensive minded guy got hurt in the playoffs, did they call up the offensive minded guy? No. They called up a career bruiser. Reading the history and looking at the stats, there is something else going on here. Might be a Perron-like situation. Who knows?

[gaijin]

I wouldn't acquire him because he is a disappointment on the ice.I don't really care that much about players attitudes.

Ask any coach: those two things are intimately related. And I dare say that the reason Cooper doesn't want to play him is because of...his play on ice. I mean, they have a contract holdout getting big minutes every night. If Drouin were perceived to be doing the job he's supposed to do he'd get TOI, end of.

Statistics don't support this. He was playing on a 3rd or 4th line, averaging 1.9 points/60 minutes played, has a middle of the road CF% just over 52% which means he does play at both ends of the ice, and was only playing 10 minutes per night. That 1.9 / 60 played was better than Stamkos over the same span. On top of that, the Lightning asked him to play center in the AHL. When they call him up, he only plays on the wing. What??? When an offensive minded guy got hurt in the playoffs, did they call up the offensive minded guy? No. They called up a career bruiser. Reading the history and looking at the stats, there is something else going on here. Might be a Perron-like situation. Who knows?

Put Drouin on a line with Tarasenko. He's more talented than some of the guys Tank's played with this year. And then Drouin can't complain about not getting minutes or being on a talented-enough line.