Anyone ever NOT pay a red-light camera ticket?

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Anyone ever NOT pay a red-light camera ticket?

Postby deadphish » Thu May 21, 2009 8:37 pm

I got one in St. Ann (St. Gregory and the Rock rd). After some googling, many residents of both city and county say to igore it and nothing will come of it most likely. I mean, I'm guilty. The photos they sent me clearly show me. over the line while the light is red, but it also states "No points will be assessed to your liscense", if you pay the $100 fine. My county taxes are high enough. I'm thinking of just playing dumb if they ever harass me. My mailman has gotten a lot of our neighborhood's mail mixed up recently. I could always use that as a defense.
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Re: Anyone ever NOT pay a red-light camera ticket?

Postby Mellanby_equals_grit » Thu May 21, 2009 8:47 pm

Umm.. You do know they can tow your car if you don't pay it right?
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Re: Anyone ever NOT pay a red-light camera ticket?

Postby deadphish » Thu May 21, 2009 9:07 pm

The articles I have been reading say that most lawyers claim that there is no way to prove who was driving the vehicle at the time of the infraction. What if I had been trying to sell the car on craigslist and the guy test drove it and got caught for the light? Not my fault.

On the ticket it states if I fail to pay I will receive a court date. So I go to court and say the craigslist thing. I know it's dishonest, but I'm really too happy with my property value assessment right now (making it impossible for me to finance) so STLCO can shove their big brother tactics uptheir arese as far as i amconcerned.

Where did you get the idea the thet can tow my vehicle? Nothing I have read indicates that is even an option with these camera deals.
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Re: Anyone ever NOT pay a red-light camera ticket?

Postby Mellanby_equals_grit » Fri May 22, 2009 7:49 am

Because they work like parking tickets.. You don't pay it.. The fine gets bigger.. It gets big enough you make the tow list. Least that's how it works in the city, but I don't know why other places wouldn't do the same since as you said otherwise there is no way to enforce paying them. I have a feeling that judge would laugh in your face.

And I love how you broke the law and are blaming big brother. :lol:
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Re: Anyone ever NOT pay a red-light camera ticket?

Postby deadphish » Fri May 22, 2009 10:32 am

Mellanby_equals_grit wrote:Because they work like parking tickets.. You don't pay it.. The fine gets bigger.. It gets big enough you make the tow list. Least that's how it works in the city, but I don't know why other places wouldn't do the same since as you said otherwise there is no way to enforce paying them. I have a feeling that judge would laugh in your face.

And I love how you broke the law and are blaming big brother. :lol:

WOW...Mr. Morality over here!

J/k M=G

I think you are misinformed. Like I said, If I don't pay it, I get a court date. If i don't show up for court then they outsource to their out of state lawfirm that they have the camera contracts with and send the bill to collection. It can't hurt to go to the court date they gave me and ask for a dismissal since they can't prove I was behind the wheel. I don't care if the judge laughs at me. I'm lying about a traffic infraction, not killing my wife and kids for god's sake.
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Re: Anyone ever NOT pay a red-light camera ticket?

Postby Mellanby_equals_grit » Fri May 22, 2009 12:31 pm

deadphish wrote:WOW...Mr. Morality over here!


Nah, I just don't get the big hubbub over red light cameras.. Don't run red lights and you don't get the tickets.. I have to work all over the city which has more of these things than anyone and I've never gotten one. Maybe I will through some extinuating circumstance someday but in general it's one traffic law I try to always follow. If only b/c I lost count of how many times I was nearly killed by letting off the brake when the light turns green then having to slam back down on it because some asshole was running a red. Okay /endmoralhighground.


I think you are misinformed.

Not about the city.. I live with a city cop.. The issue has come up in conversation a few times and he says that's how it goes which is what I've heard from others as well.
Maybe it's different in St. Ann, but they have to have some way of enforcing the things.
Still though if you want to fight it I say go ahead.. I been in their courthouse before all I remember was having to fight a ticket for no proof of insurance (when I had insurance) and the judge being a total dick to me about it. As well as some cop trying to harass me on the way in. Everyone else was there for stealing cars, getting drunk, hitting someone without insurance and getting most of it thrown out, and then I get treated like shit for not having proof like 3 days into my new insurance policy.

I'm lying about a traffic infraction, not killing my wife and kids for god's sake.


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Re: Anyone ever NOT pay a red-light camera ticket?

Postby Ruutu15 » Fri May 22, 2009 1:23 pm

It really depends on how far you want to take it. A good lawyer, which would be overboard in this situation, would argue that you cannot give a ticket to a vehicle, because it is impossible to prove who was behind the wheel at the time of the infraction. That said, I think you should fight it. What if it was your twin brother behind the wheel? Or like you said, a test drive?

You have nothing to lose by at least trying. You can pay it now, or try to win your case and pay it later if you fail.
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Re: Anyone ever NOT pay a red-light camera ticket?

Postby deadphish » Fri May 22, 2009 1:41 pm

Ruutu15 wrote:It really depends on how far you want to take it. A good lawyer, which would be overboard in this situation, would argue that you cannot give a ticket to a vehicle, because it is impossible to prove who was behind the wheel at the time of the infraction. That said, I think you should fight it. What if it was your twin brother behind the wheel? Or like you said, a test drive?

You have nothing to lose by at least trying. You can pay it now, or try to win your case and pay it later if you fail.

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Re: Anyone ever NOT pay a red-light camera ticket?

Postby EN4CR » Fri May 22, 2009 2:51 pm

This is my understanding as to the reason people are not paying them


1. The burden is on the state to prove that is you. You can just say it isnt you and try to have them prove that its you.

2. There was no police officer to pull you over and give you the ticket. They are trying to get you for a moving violation. I heard this in the morning on KMOX I think a couple of weeks ago about how police officers refuse to sign these tickets. When you normally get a ticket they normally sign the tickets we get because they are a witness to the crime. Apparently the judges are signing off on these which is more messed up.

3. The one I heard in court which you may want to check on was a lawyer claiming that the camera was not in the right amount of feet between the camera and the stop as stated in the law for these things.

I personally hate them. A police officer can judge if you going through the light was you trying to run the light or got stuck in between. I only got one like a year or two ago right before the RFT article paid it and regret that I did. To me it scares people into accepting the ticket so they wont have to pay larger amount for basically questioning why they got it.

http://www.highwayrobbery.net/

Not saying all on that link are true just check with a lawyer.
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Re: Anyone ever NOT pay a red-light camera ticket?

Postby Leedog » Fri May 22, 2009 3:07 pm

They aren't ticketing the driver, hence no points. They are ticketing the owner of the vehicle. Just like if you loan the car to someone else and they get a parking ticket. You are on the hook for it.
An interesting take on why these should be eliminated. Discriminatory enforcement is unconstitutional. Why should you just have to pay a fine for your running a red light when I will have to pay a fine AND get points against my license if a cop gives me a ticket for the same offense.
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Re: Anyone ever NOT pay a red-light camera ticket?

Postby EN4CR » Fri May 22, 2009 3:47 pm

Leedog wrote:They aren't ticketing the driver, hence no points. They are ticketing the owner of the vehicle. Just like if you loan the car to someone else and they get a parking ticket. You are on the hook for it.
An interesting take on why these should be eliminated. Discriminatory enforcement is unconstitutional. Why should you just have to pay a fine for your running a red light when I will have to pay a fine AND get points against my license if a cop gives me a ticket for the same offense.



I didnt think about that...it does make sense though. I just remember what was talked about on KMOX. Your second point is the reason why I think the police wont sign the tickets.
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Re: Anyone ever NOT pay a red-light camera ticket?

Postby glen a richter » Fri May 22, 2009 6:42 pm

I got one of those a couple years ago, a $50 job in Queens.

It's $100, it happens. You're making more trouble for yourself trying to fight it.
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Re: Anyone ever NOT pay a red-light camera ticket?

Postby Ruutu15 » Fri May 22, 2009 7:38 pm

glen a richter wrote:You're making more trouble for yourself trying to fight it.


Why? What's the worst that can happen? They tell him to pay it? Oh no.
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Re: Anyone ever NOT pay a red-light camera ticket?

Postby Leedog » Fri May 22, 2009 10:08 pm

Could they put out a warrant for unpaid fines? So next time you get pulled over or go through a check point you wind up in the clink?
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Re: Anyone ever NOT pay a red-light camera ticket?

Postby glen a richter » Sat May 23, 2009 8:00 am

Ruutu15 wrote:
glen a richter wrote:You're making more trouble for yourself trying to fight it.


Why? What's the worst that can happen? They tell him to pay it? Oh no.


So you put no value on time?

Some people value time and would rather not waste it trying to, most likely fruitlessly, fight a ticket. Especially a ticket which has photo evidence that would be very difficult to dispute.

How many times have you broken a driving law and not gotten caught? I'd venture the guess that the answer to that is every single day. Most people do. You eek 1 mile per hour over the speed limit and you can get a ticket. Do you get a ticket every day though? The answer to that is decidedly no. So the time that you get nailed, why waste the time fighting it? Is all the time dealing with lawyers and the courts worth less than $100?
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Re: Anyone ever NOT pay a red-light camera ticket?

Postby Mellanby_equals_grit » Sat May 23, 2009 10:16 am

Leedog wrote:Could they put out a warrant for unpaid fines? So next time you get pulled over or go through a check point you wind up in the clink?


It probably ranges.. I got a parking ticket in Kirkwood ages ago and being as I spent almost no time there I figured I'd just ignore it.. Like 6 months later I get a letter that if I don't pay there'll be a warrant issued. Coulda been bullshit but I wasn't gonna take the chance.
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Re: Anyone ever NOT pay a red-light camera ticket?

Postby Mellanby_equals_grit » Sat May 23, 2009 10:18 am

glen a richter wrote:
Ruutu15 wrote:
glen a richter wrote:You're making more trouble for yourself trying to fight it.


Why? What's the worst that can happen? They tell him to pay it? Oh no.


So you put no value on time?

Some people value time and would rather not waste it trying to, most likely fruitlessly, fight a ticket. Especially a ticket which has photo evidence that would be very difficult to dispute.

How many times have you broken a driving law and not gotten caught? I'd venture the guess that the answer to that is every single day. Most people do. You eek 1 mile per hour over the speed limit and you can get a ticket. Do you get a ticket every day though? The answer to that is decidedly no. So the time that you get nailed, why waste the time fighting it? Is all the time dealing with lawyers and the courts worth less than $100?


Well in this case you have a point, but when points are involved it's always worth fighting.. And in Missouri we have this bizarre corrupt-ass system where paying a lawyer pretty much guarantees you no points (assuming it isn't too serious), if you're willing to pay a bigger fine.
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Re: Anyone ever NOT pay a red-light camera ticket?

Postby stlbluz » Sat May 23, 2009 7:06 pm

I mentioned this today to a lawyer that I play hockey with & he said that there's a case in the works right now in the supreme court. I forgot where he said it started, but the validity of those tickets is definitely in question. I'll ask him for more details when I talk to him again next week.
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Re: Anyone ever NOT pay a red-light camera ticket?

Postby glen a richter » Sat May 23, 2009 8:14 pm

You can't give points on a ticket issued as a result of a picture. There's no way to prove who was driving the car. In a case like this, it's strictly about the money. That's why I say that the issue should be, in this case, what's worth more: the ticket or the time spent fighting it?
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Re: Anyone ever NOT pay a red-light camera ticket?

Postby deadphish » Sun May 24, 2009 12:37 pm

The court house is a mile from my house. When I get my court date, I'll show up and simply ask that the case be dismissed after the prosecution rests.

Time spent: 1 hour maybe a little more.

Money saved: $100

Sleep I'll lose over the moral issue: 0.0 hrs
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