Joining a church...

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Re: Joining a church...

Postby dmiles2186 » Mon May 26, 2014 6:49 am

JesusNEVERexisted wrote:You make good points glen but there is one crucial point all you guys must remember. The burden of proof is on the believer! This stuff about you cannot prove or disprove a god is a useless argument because you cannot prove ANYTHING doesn't exist! Even a Christian cannot prove Zeus or Apollo isn't real. You cannot prove a negative but you can use logic to reach some pretty obvious conclusions.

How do you Christians explain the hundreds (if not thousands) of sick Christian kids who die every year? I've even asked Christian clergy about this and they have NO answer. To their parents it made no difference if they prayed to Medusa or Jesus because their kid died.

All I'm saying is if you Christians believe literally thousands of gods are fake then by logical extension and common sense YOUR GOD IS FAKE TOO! I have been to multiple churches of different denominations and Jesus is just as absent there as Hercules or any other god! I noticed Christians are full of doubt and strongly question their own religion. All I'm saying is just be realistic and use common sense! If humans can make up stories of thousands of gods they can easily make up a story of another one that no one ever saw on earth named Jesus!


But isn't the definition of using 'common sense' the doubt that these Christians speak to? It doesn't make sense to believe in something that is not there. And most Christians know that. In fact, my brother in law who is a worship and youth group leader at a church in the St. Louis metro area, and is one of the strongest Christians I know, even admits this very thing. He and my sister in law endured a personal tragedy last summer that is as tough as anyone can go through. They used their faith as a source of strength to continue on.

I'm not sure I understand your argument about Christians with sick kids. Of course the clergy didn't have an answer. Who does? If we did, then we could save all kids from sickness and tragedy. I think what you fail to understand about Christians is that when things like this happen, they turn to God and they 'leave it in his hands.' Should their child or family member perish, there is a relief that it is 'God's will' and their child is in a 'better place.' They aren't happy with it of course, but because of their belief in Heaven, Christians are comforted by the fact they will see them again in the afterlife.

I think you'll find most Christians will admit to not knowing all the answers. They'll admit to the doubt. It's only natural. I keep using this word over and over again, but ultimately it comes down to faith. That's it. They just have faith that all these crazy things they believe in are real. And thus, they're okay that the burden of proof is on them.
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Re: Joining a church...

Postby JesusNEVERexisted » Mon May 26, 2014 10:44 am

Dude, that makes no sense and that's why even Christians admit their religion is dying and thousands of churches close every year.

If you simply throw up your hands after a tragedy and say your loved one is in a better place yet have NO rational basis to do so you might as well say they are with Hades or Mithras!

That is my biggest bone to pick with Christians. This delusional idea that somehow their religion is more real than any other religion or god! ANYTHING you find fake about Dionysis or Horus applies equally to Jesus!
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Re: Joining a church...

Postby dmiles2186 » Mon May 26, 2014 12:42 pm

JesusNEVERexisted wrote:Dude, that makes no sense and that's why even Christians admit their religion is dying and thousands of churches close every year.

If you simply throw up your hands after a tragedy and say your loved one is in a better place yet have NO rational basis to do so you might as well say they are with Hades or Mithras!

That is my biggest bone to pick with Christians. This delusional idea that somehow their religion is more real than any other religion or god! ANYTHING you find fake about Dionysis or Horus applies equally to Jesus!


I don't disagree with you on your last point. Part of the reason I'm no longer a Christian is because of the, I don't know the word...pushiness, I guess, of the religion as a whole.

But I know plenty of Christians and I'm just trying to explain to you at least where they are coming from. I wouldn't so much call it 'throwing their hands up,' but if you believe that there's an afterlife where there is no pain, only happiness and love, wouldn't you feel like your loved one is in a better place? Truth be told, none of us know exactly what happens once our lights are turned out for good. Atheists, Christians, Scientists...no one knows. So I choose not to judge Christians for thinking that way, because it gets them by.

I also don't think that Christians just sit there as if they're okay with sickness and death and tragedy. But they choose to look at it in a different light than most folk. And that's their prerogative and I'm okay with it. Just as I'm okay with you not believing in a God. Like I said earlier, whatever we all beleive personally works for all of us as individuals, and that should be okay.

Personally, I believe that people telling me WHAT to believe is the same as someone else telling me WHAT NOT to believe. You might be right. They might be right. I might be right. Or Steve Urkel might be the one true God. Who knows?
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Re: Joining a church...

Postby JesusNEVERexisted » Mon May 26, 2014 4:02 pm

The biggest problem I have with an afterlife is where is the neural mass where consciousness would come from after you die? I know all this talk of a soul but people talked of a soul long before Christianity and there is not a shred of proof a soul is real.

One way to show it's not real is look at people with brain damage. It shows all our thoughts and functioning come from a working brain but without that brain we are nothing. If someone has a traumatic brain injury they just sit there like a vegetable or may even be in a coma. IF a soul was real that is where it would kick in! It would kick in when you are brain dead but it NEVER does! It is another blow to religion and is further proof that without our brain we don't exist!
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Re: Joining a church...

Postby glen a richter » Mon May 26, 2014 6:53 pm

The so called "light" that is spoken of is the direct result of loss of oxygen to the brain. I know a guy who went in for prostate cancer surgery, bled profusely on the operating table and was considered clinically dead 3 times before finally and thankfully being revived. He said there was no light, just nothingness. For the record, he is a Christian.
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Re: Joining a church...

Postby JesusNEVERexisted » Mon May 26, 2014 8:53 pm

glen a richter wrote:The so called "light" that is spoken of is the direct result of loss of oxygen to the brain. I know a guy who went in for prostate cancer surgery, bled profusely on the operating table and was considered clinically dead 3 times before finally and thankfully being revived. He said there was no light, just nothingness. For the record, he is a Christian.


I have had surgery too and although I was never clinically dead I was really deep under and when I came to it just felt like I was dead and it reminded me of what death must be like. A TOTAL BLACKOUT WHERE YOU FADE TO OBLIVION AND NOTHINGNESS.

That sounds very depressing but unless someone can prove otherwise that is the reality for all of us!
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Re: Joining a church...

Postby cardsfan04 » Mon May 26, 2014 9:49 pm

JesusNEVERexisted wrote:Dude, that makes no sense and that's why even Christians admit their religion is dying and thousands of churches close every year.

If you simply throw up your hands after a tragedy and say your loved one is in a better place yet have NO rational basis to do so you might as well say they are with Hades or Mithras!

That is my biggest bone to pick with Christians. This delusional idea that somehow their religion is more real than any other religion or god! ANYTHING you find fake about Dionysis or Horus applies equally to Jesus!


The last point is my biggest "question" about religion. There have been thousands of religions throughout civilization. And, they mostly answer the same questions:

1. Where did we come from?
2. Why are we here?
3. Where do we go when we die?
4. How should we live our lives?

I find it hard to find 1 irrational, but believe in another.

That said, I don't understand what's so bad about somebody else believing it. If it makes somebody happy and what they believe isn't being used to hurt others, I don't see the problem.
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Re: Joining a church...

Postby JesusNEVERexisted » Tue May 27, 2014 2:12 am

But that's the problem Cardsfan04. Since some religion is exclusionary in nature it breeds intolerance and hatred. I am speaking really only of Christianity and Islam since those are the 2 religions that mostly do it.

You can find verses in both religion that say "my way or the highway" and over the centuries they have used those lines to kill MILLIONS! It is the antithesis of the freedom and choice we have in America. The bible is very unamerican because it doesn't believe in freedom of thought and expression and in some ways is at odds with our founding documents. That's one of the key reasons why Christianity is dying all over the west.

Interesting to note but did you know the words god, Christian, or Jesus appear nowhere in our Constitution?
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Re: Joining a church...

Postby cardsfan04 » Tue May 27, 2014 8:45 am

JesusNEVERexisted wrote:But that's the problem Cardsfan04. Since some religion is exclusionary in nature it breeds intolerance and hatred. I am speaking really only of Christianity and Islam since those are the 2 religions that mostly do it.

You can find verses in both religion that say "my way or the highway" and over the centuries they have used those lines to kill MILLIONS! It is the antithesis of the freedom and choice we have in America. The bible is very unamerican because it doesn't believe in freedom of thought and expression and in some ways is at odds with our founding documents. That's one of the key reasons why Christianity is dying all over the west.

Interesting to note but did you know the words god, Christian, or Jesus appear nowhere in our Constitution?


I'll agree that horrible things are done under the guise of religion for sure. But, I think that's usually people using religion poorly, not necessarily the religion being evil itself. For every 1 person you find that commits evil acts in the name of religion, I'm sure there are thousands that don't.

Christianity says something to the effect of "The only way to salvation is through Jesus." I assume you're referring to something similar when you mention "my way or the highway." That's not a call for violence or any evil act against anybody.
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Re: Joining a church...

Postby JesusNEVERexisted » Tue May 27, 2014 9:19 am

But look at the bible quotes I posted that clearly say to kill people that aren't Christian. I know Christians don't do that anymore but they did for centuries killing MILLIONS all over the world! Christianity is the only religion to have killed people on every continent except Antartica!
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Re: Joining a church...

Postby dmiles2186 » Tue May 27, 2014 10:54 am

I don't disagree that Christianity and religion in general has been used for evil. But as cardsfan says, for every person that does that, there are thousands that don't. I think you (JesusAin'tReal,Yo) are lumping ALL Christians in with those who have or continue to use it for evil. It's this type of generalization that can get us in trouble. And that goes both ways. Christians have a tendency of lumping all of us 'nonbelievers' in together as well, when truth be told, all of us are unique, have differing views, and differing beliefs, but we're tied together by the fact that none of us are Christian.

As cardsfan said, Christians believe that Jesus is the only way to salvation. It's through this that many people clean up their lives. Some find the strength to quit drinking, smoking, drugs, gambling, sleeping around on their significant others, what have you, through belief in Jesus. I don't find anything wrong with that. Plus, I know it varies from denomination to denomination, but most Christians don't believe 'once saved, always saved.' There are certain denominations where being saved it part of it, but still living a good, moralistic life and repenting of your sins is key for entry to heaven. Not many negatives there, either.
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Re: Joining a church...

Postby JesusNEVERexisted » Tue May 27, 2014 1:19 pm

Dmiles, I was talking about the scripture which is clearly very evil and that's why Christians pick and choose only certain parts of the bible which automatically dumbs down the faith when you ignore entire parts of the bible!

I don't have any of those vices you listed and I know Jesus is a myth! None of that "prove it" nonsense because Christians can't prove any other god isn't real. You need to simply have a strong mind and the will to do it. It has nothing to do with Jesus. Some people use Jesus or religion as a crutch like Jesse Ventura himself said and he said those are "weak minded people"!
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Re: Joining a church...

Postby dmiles2186 » Tue May 27, 2014 2:28 pm

JesusNEVERexisted wrote:Dmiles, I was talking about the scripture which is clearly very evil and that's why Christians pick and choose only certain parts of the bible which automatically dumbs down the faith when you ignore entire parts of the bible!

I don't have any of those vices you listed and I know Jesus is a myth! None of that "prove it" nonsense because Christians can't prove any other god isn't real. You need to simply have a strong mind and the will to do it. It has nothing to do with Jesus. Some people use Jesus or religion as a crutch like Jesse Ventura himself said and he said those are "weak minded people"!


I don't disagree with you at all. I'm just coming at it from an angle. I guess you could say they use it as a 'crutch,' whereas I might view it as more of a 'motivational tool.' Either way, it's semantics.

I should also let you know, I used to have thoughts similar to you. I know exactly the place you are coming from. I've just softened on it over the years.
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Re: Joining a church...

Postby glen a richter » Wed May 28, 2014 7:03 pm

Some people say that religion is the foundation for living a good life but I disagree completely. Ones upbringing is the foundation for living a good life. Going to church or synagogue or mosque every week does not guarantee that you will be a good person or live right or treat people fairly. If attending services makes people feel better about themselves, then that's their deal and not mine. I wouldn't begrudge them the right to do that as I would expect they shouldn't begrudge me the right not to do that. I know the difference between right and wrong, my wife knows the difference between right and wrong and my son will be raised to know the difference between right and wrong. I don't think being religious is a prerequisite for that. Sometimes (not always) I think it might be a prerequisite for being immoral. Often, people do immoral things and then say it's okay if they go to confession and say a couple of hail Mary's. Case in point: pedophile priests.
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Re: Joining a church...

Postby JesusNEVERexisted » Wed May 28, 2014 8:31 pm

Glen you are SO right! America was never as religious as we were when we were founded. Church attendance was virtually 100% yet slavery and public lynchings were perfectly legal and accepted with the full approval of the bible! Not to mention suppression of women's rights and denying women the right to vote among other vices!
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Re: Joining a church...

Postby Misc. Blues » Thu May 29, 2014 11:00 pm

I usually don't get into these conversations because they are pointless but I find it hilarious that an atheist is trying to prove that Jesus never existed. Forgive me if I don't believe you.

You talk about no proof...well you need to read other books because history disproves your theory. Read some Greek or Roman history. 2000 plus years ago people didn't have the things we have today. Jesus was only preaching for 3 years in a small country run by the Roman Empire that didn't allow free speech and you expect there to be loads of proof. I find it funny that someone who only preached for 3 years has one the biggest followings of any religion. Christians didn't exist before Jesus "the Christ". But if he didn't exist why are there Christians? They just made it up for giggles? That's like saying Buddha didn't exist and yet we have Buddhist's. Btw Buddha was a Prince (he was a man not a God).

The Adam and Eve proof cracks me up too because of the flood that killed all but 8 people (Noah's Ark duh). Funny that scientists have proven that there was a flood over the entire earth.

To think we all came from monkeys is a good one too. Hello we still have monkeys...

If we all came from the big bang where did the atoms come from? Are we just random chance? Yeah right.


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Re: Joining a church...

Postby JesusNEVERexisted » Fri May 30, 2014 12:39 am

Misc.Blues, it's obvious you know nothing about science or how the world works. Even Christian clergy have admitted Adam&Eve is a myth since you need a breeding population of several thousand for a species to survive. The flood story has long been DEBUNKED by science! The biblical flood stories are just another fake flood story like the ones that came before it.

You need to learn the meaning of the word OBJECTIVE! All you're saying is "the bible says so"! Not a single Roman official ever said Jesus even existed! You are making the mistake of believing bible CLAIMS written a hundred years later! Not a single historical character ever saw an earthly Jesus, Moses, Noah, Adam&Eve, etc.!

It's clear these characters are allegorical and symbolic in nature. NOWHERE in the bible does it say we mean these stories and characters to be taken literally! Like I was saying even clergy have NO answer for hundreds of sick Christian kids who die every year. Your mythical Jesus responds as much as Zeus or Thor! Belief in Christianity is dying off at a pretty alarming rate in the west as thousands of churches close every year in America alone!

You Christians only show how NAIVE you are by dismissing thousands of other gods when your god is just as absent as any other!


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Re: Joining a church...

Postby JesusNEVERexisted » Fri May 30, 2014 12:46 am

Just for you Misc. Blues:

It’s simple.  Can anyone name one technological advancement, one scientific achievement, or a single advancement in morals and ethics not already covered earlier and better in a neighboring cultures near Palestine ?  

Even the religious ideas (theology) of the Bible such as creation, the flood, the idea of sin, sacrifice and atonement, Holy War, the divine rule of kings and religious leaders as well as every idea of divinity claimed for Jesus making him special and unique, were all plagiarized from much older Egyptian, Mesopotamian Persian and Greco-Roman religions.

Yet, due to the fact that Christianity has been able to continually mutate while taking advantage of lucky breaks in history (such has being used to legitimizing authoritarian ruling powers while demonizing all other religions and cultures, especially those whose religious identification it had stolen); today Christianity survives because of its ability to generate billions of dollars while it employs millions in the Christian religious industry.  In reality, Christianity continues to survive as a parasite living and feeding off the host of believes whose minds it dominates though either ignorance and / or denial.



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Re: Joining a church...

Postby dmiles2186 » Fri May 30, 2014 5:42 am

JesusNEVERexisted wrote:You Christians only show how NAIVE you are by dismissing thousands of other gods when your god is just as absent as any other!


Why do you keep saying 'you Christians?' Several of us in this discussion have already stated that we are not Christians. I think you are confusing those on the other side of the discussion as Christians just because we have some different thoughts than you do.
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Re: Joining a church...

Postby Misc. Blues » Fri May 30, 2014 9:09 am

JesusNEVERexisted wrote:Just for you Misc. Blues:

It’s simple.  Can anyone name one technological advancement, one scientific achievement, or a single advancement in morals and ethics not already covered earlier and better in a neighboring cultures near Palestine ?  

Even the religious ideas (theology) of the Bible such as creation, the flood, the idea of sin, sacrifice and atonement, Holy War, the divine rule of kings and religious leaders as well as every idea of divinity claimed for Jesus making him special and unique, were all plagiarized from much older Egyptian, Mesopotamian Persian and Greco-Roman religions.

Yet, due to the fact that Christianity has been able to continually mutate while taking advantage of lucky breaks in history (such has being used to legitimizing authoritarian ruling powers while demonizing all other religions and cultures, especially those whose religious identification it had stolen); today Christianity survives because of its ability to generate billions of dollars while it employs millions in the Christian religious industry.  In reality, Christianity continues to survive as a parasite living and feeding off the host of believes whose minds it dominates though either ignorance and / or denial.



http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.c ... h.html?m=1


You've totally changed my mind...<sarcasm>

Why is it so important for you to get people to not believe? If you don't believe that's your choice but everyone should have the same right to choose what they want. You spewing hate doesn't make your case.

Oh as a "believer" yes the Bible tells me so...If you are a "true believer" then yes every single word in the Bible is true. As a "believer" I believe the Bible is the word of God. You apparently need to read it again. Anyone can skim the Bible to pick and choose what they like and don't like. I choose to "believe" and that is my right, just as it is your right to not believe. You could put a gun to my head and it would not change my mind. I'll still "believe".

I am not naive. Just because you read it on the internet doesn't make it true. Books were around before the internet. Pick up an actual book once in a awhile.
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