Possible 2nd Toronto team?

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Re: Possible 2nd Toronto team?

Postby cprice12 » Tue Jun 09, 2009 9:02 am

New York has three teams and New Jersey is right there too.
Pennsylvania has two teams and the Caps are close by.
(The east coast has six teams almost right on top of each other.)
California has three teams.
Florida has two teams.

The NHL has never had a problem with putting teams in close proximity to other teams.

Toronto is arguably the most insanely hockey crazy market in the world (only rival market is Montreal). The Toronto area could easily support two teams and it wouldn't effect the popularity or attendance of the Leafs, Sabers or any other team within a few hours drive.

The Hamilton area has been dying for an NHL team for decades. This isn't the desert, or the southern United States, or an area that isn't hockey tested. This is the Toronto area. The team would do well.

I think an NHL team in Las Vegas would be more of a gimmick or a sideshow than anything else. It could work if the fan base is there, but I doubt it is. It would be big for a couple years but the novelty could wear off, just like it did in Phoenix. The NHL thought Phoenix was going to be a great fit as well...and that experiment flopped. Is Las Vegas that much different? I dunno.

Move the Coyotes back to Canada...put them in Hamilton where they will be appreciated. Phoenix sucks as a hockey market.
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Re: Possible 2nd Toronto team?

Postby Steve Levy Sucks » Tue Jun 09, 2009 10:05 am

cprice12 wrote:
I think an NHL team in Las Vegas would be more of a gimmick or a sideshow than anything else. It could work if the fan base is there, but I doubt it is. It would be big for a couple years but the novelty could wear off, just like it did in Phoenix.


I hate to agree with you, about anything, but I do in this case. Las Vegas can sell out its one NASCAR race a year, because it's only one, and big NASCAR fans who want to go to Vegas will go when the race is in town. But hockey, and 41 home games a year, I don't believe they have the market for that. People who go to Vegas are going to catch a famous show or act before they go see a hockey game, and I don't think the people who actually live in Vegas are the hockey type.

I can see football working, with its 8 home games a year, but not the NHL
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Re: Possible 2nd Toronto team?

Postby gaijin » Tue Jun 09, 2009 2:23 pm

Steve Levy Sucks wrote:
cprice12 wrote:
I think an NHL team in Las Vegas would be more of a gimmick or a sideshow than anything else. It could work if the fan base is there, but I doubt it is. It would be big for a couple years but the novelty could wear off, just like it did in Phoenix.


I hate to agree with you, about anything, but I do in this case. Las Vegas can sell out its one NASCAR race a year, because it's only one, and big NASCAR fans who want to go to Vegas will go when the race is in town. But hockey, and 41 home games a year, I don't believe they have the market for that. People who go to Vegas are going to catch a famous show or act before they go see a hockey game, and I don't think the people who actually live in Vegas are the hockey type.

I can see football working, with its 8 home games a year, but not the NHL


That's exactly why the NHL has to get into the market first (if they do at all). They need to market the game as a "show" or an "act"- another form of entertainment that Vegas can offer to both locals and visitors with money to throw around.
The NFL or NBA are much more suited to the particular idiom of Vegas, which is why if one of those leagues establishes a franchise first, the NHL has no chance there.
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Re: Possible 2nd Toronto team?

Postby Steve Levy Sucks » Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:13 pm

So it sounds like this move is going to happen, only thing holding it up is the amount of the 'relocation fee'. So, without reading back through the thread to see if this has been answered - will they really keep the Hamilton team still in the West, or would they move them them to the East? If so, which existing Eastern team would have to move to the West?
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Re: Possible 2nd Toronto team?

Postby philco_3 » Wed Jun 10, 2009 2:46 pm

Steve Levy Sucks wrote:So it sounds like this move is going to happen, only thing holding it up is the amount of the 'relocation fee'. So, without reading back through the thread to see if this has been answered - will they really keep the Hamilton team still in the West, or would they move them them to the East? If so, which existing Eastern team would have to move to the West?


I think it would go East and the Central would either get back Toronto or Atlanta.
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Re: Possible 2nd Toronto team?

Postby philco_3 » Wed Jun 10, 2009 2:49 pm

Just looked at a map, I'm surprised Atlanta wasn't in the West to begin with. Cause Columbus is more East than Atlanta. They would probably move Atlanta over.
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Re: Possible 2nd Toronto team?

Postby gaijin » Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:47 pm

I seem to remember having this conversation a while back, and if my memory hasn't failed, Detroit is actually further east than Atlanta as well. :detsucks:
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Re: Possible 2nd Toronto team?

Postby philco_3 » Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:17 pm

gaijin wrote:I seem to remember having this conversation a while back, and if my memory hasn't failed, Detroit is actually further east than Atlanta as well. :detsucks:


It is. :plusplus: :detsucks:
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Re: Possible 2nd Toronto team?

Postby WaukeeBlues » Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:04 pm

I doubt Atlanta is going anywhere. Everytime Bettman reminds himself the NHL has a legit southeastern division he gets a boner.
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Re: Possible 2nd Toronto team?

Postby philco_3 » Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:49 am

I thought of this last night the NHL needs to go back to just having 2 divisions in each conference.

Western conference
Pacific Division
Anahiem
Calgary
Colorado
Dallas
Edmonton
LA
San Jose
Vancouver
Winnipeg (If Phoenix Moves)

Central
Chicago
Columbus
Detroit
Minnesota
Nashville
St. Louis
Toronto (If Phoenix moves to east)

Eastern Conference
Northeast
Boston
Buffalo
Hamilton (If Phoenix Moves)
Montreal
New Jersey
New York Islanders
New York Rangers
Ottawa
Toronto (If Phoenix stays in the west)

Southeast
Atlanta
Carolina
Florida
Philadelphia
Pittsburgh
Tampa Bay
Washington
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Re: Possible 2nd Toronto team?

Postby kodos » Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:24 am

How completely weird would it be to just suddenly have another NHL franchise in your city?

Let's say you are a die hard Leafs fan and suddenly, BOOM there is this other team in your city. Aren't you by default supposed to hate that team? People who live in cities with multiple teams always have to pick sides, and the teams always end up as bitter hated rivals.

So what would happen? Toronto is hockey crazed, so who would go to this new team? People upset at the Leafs? Kids? Traitors?

If a second team showed up in St. Louis I would hate them. I can't even fathom a scenario that would make me switch allegiances or root for them both. It seems impossible.
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Re: Possible 2nd Toronto team?

Postby philco_3 » Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:55 pm

kodos wrote:How completely weird would it be to just suddenly have another NHL franchise in your city?

Let's say you are a die hard Leafs fan and suddenly, BOOM there is this other team in your city. Aren't you by default supposed to hate that team? People who live in cities with multiple teams always have to pick sides, and the teams always end up as bitter hated rivals.

So what would happen? Toronto is hockey crazed, so who would go to this new team? People upset at the Leafs? Kids? Traitors?

If a second team showed up in St. Louis I would hate them. I can't even fathom a scenario that would make me switch allegiances or root for them both. It seems impossible.


There is no way STL could support another team...hell they can't even support 3 professional teams in the same city. I know I couldn't love them like the Blues.
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Re: Possible 2nd Toronto team?

Postby kodos » Thu Jun 11, 2009 1:37 pm

It was a hypothetical question about fan feelings, not anything to do with economic realities.
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Re: Possible 2nd Toronto team?

Postby philco_3 » Thu Jun 11, 2009 1:59 pm

kodos wrote:It was a hypothetical question about fan feelings, not anything to do with economic realities.


I wasn't talking about economics. Look at how much support they give the Rams, it would have been like when the old Blues owners wanted a NBA team. There is no way STL could support them. STL is mostly a Cardinals and partially a Blues town.
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Re: Possible 2nd Toronto team?

Postby Steve Levy Sucks » Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:01 pm

kodos wrote:It was a hypothetical question about fan feelings, not anything to do with economic realities.


Has your username been hacked by OS?
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Re: Possible 2nd Toronto team?

Postby kodos » Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:28 pm

We're the same person. We just have multiple personalities. My/our secret is out.
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Re: Possible 2nd Toronto team?

Postby section319 » Sat Jun 13, 2009 12:45 am

kodos wrote:How completely weird would it be to just suddenly have another NHL franchise in your city?

Let's say you are a die hard Leafs fan and suddenly, BOOM there is this other team in your city. Aren't you by default supposed to hate that team? People who live in cities with multiple teams always have to pick sides, and the teams always end up as bitter hated rivals.

So what would happen? Toronto is hockey crazed, so who would go to this new team? People upset at the Leafs? Kids? Traitors?

If a second team showed up in St. Louis I would hate them. I can't even fathom a scenario that would make me switch allegiances or root for them both. It seems impossible.


With how hard it is to get tickets up there, I think people just want to be able to go to games. I am sure it would take some getting used to switching like that but I think they just want to see some live hockey.
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Re: Possible 2nd Toronto team?

Postby hullisgod » Sat Jun 13, 2009 1:40 pm

kodos wrote:How completely weird would it be to just suddenly have another NHL franchise in your city?

Let's say you are a die hard Leafs fan and suddenly, BOOM there is this other team in your city. Aren't you by default supposed to hate that team? People who live in cities with multiple teams always have to pick sides, and the teams always end up as bitter hated rivals.

So what would happen? Toronto is hockey crazed, so who would go to this new team? People upset at the Leafs? Kids? Traitors?

If a second team showed up in St. Louis I would hate them. I can't even fathom a scenario that would make me switch allegiances or root for them both. It seems impossible.


If Balsille does get the Coyotes they would be in Hamilton, and its a good 40 minute drive on the highway from Hamilton to Toronto. Hamilton/Toronto has always been a bitter rivalry, Hamilton is more of an industrial city (kind of like a Pittsburgh?) and they hate the 'big city' mentality of Toronto and Toronto just sees Hamilton as a giant shithole.

With that being said, the rivalry would be amazing. There is no doubt Hamilton would sell out every game, and having a division containing Toronto, Hamilton, Montreal, Ottawa would be pretty crazy. I dont know why the NHL would not want this, Balsille is filthy rich and has a medium (in the Blackberry) that the NHL could pimp the shit out of.

I hope Hamilton gets the team as I will be able to watch the Blues more!
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Re: Possible 2nd Toronto team?

Postby glen a richter » Sun Jun 14, 2009 6:37 am

How do you consider Philly "southeast"?
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