Shane Doan

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Re: Shane Doan

Postby glen a richter » Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:10 am

Oakland, did you author that captivating book "How to alienate fans without really trying"?

We are fortunate you aren't Army in disguise.
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Re: Shane Doan

Postby Oaklandblue » Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:23 am

glen a richter wrote:Oakland, did you author that captivating book "How to alienate fans without really trying"?

We are fortunate you aren't Army in disguise.


Glen (And everyone else), I'm honestly not trying to and if I am, I apologize.

One thing you have to understand is that I don't live in the STL (Which by now should be fairly obvious), so I have no idea what impact Oshie has to the masses beyond being seen by the ladies as the Bluenote equivalent of Justin Bieber (Though I'd bet on Oshie in a heartbeat in that fight). I've been a fan long enough to see how this goes and to hear similar things heard about other players who have circulated through our system. They'll be the best D/F/etc and are just developing, but never quite get there. After awhile that gets annoying, and I'm sure it's annoying for the rest of you.

I'd like to see us win, that's all. And I'm devoted enough to wait the rest of my life to see it and not jump to another team. If I was saying something ridiculous, I might be in agreement, but 'sacrificing' Oshie for Doan sounds like an upgrade to me. Then again, this is a team that is more interested in the popularity of a player in the lockerroom (Stewart) than we are about winning. Maybe it's the culture. Maybe I'm a twit. Maybe I need to live where there's snow to get it. The problem may very well be that, quite simply, I just don't get it.
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Re: Shane Doan

Postby WaukeeBlues » Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:04 pm

Oaklandblue wrote:
glen a richter wrote:Oakland, did you author that captivating book "How to alienate fans without really trying"?

We are fortunate you aren't Army in disguise.


...I'd like to see us win, that's all...


Umm... after one playoff appearance in however many years its been, I would consider a Central Division crown, 5 game beatdown of the Sharks and a loss to the eventual Stanley Cup Champions a pretty good year.

For whatever reason: Hitchcock, our younger guys finally turning the corner, increased leadership and accountability... we turned a corner this year. We got back into the playoffs, and beat a team with a plethora of playoff experience under its belt.

Ignoring the Kings' most recent run to the cup (nearly unprecedented in NHL history) a cup isn't built in a day or a year. We made progress, our core is there, I think we need another top 4 D-man more than anything right now and unfortuantely didn't make it happen in free agency. But I think trading Oshie would be a tragic mistake. He's a fan favorite BECAUSE of what he does on the ice for us: hits like a train, can dangle when he has the space and time, has an offensive touch and is a workhorse. Those types aren't a dime a dozen in this league.
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Re: Shane Doan

Postby DaDitka » Sun Jul 15, 2012 5:56 pm

Oaklandblue wrote:
cprice12 wrote:
Oaklandblue wrote:
Even front-loaded with incentives, 7.5m is insane for Doan, regardless what Minnesota paid for Parise and Suter. He's a guy we could use and would be effective now. I wouldn't go anymore than 4m and that's front-loaded with incentives. If he's that loyal and that willing to play for loyalty, he'd understand a team's situation and go with something that helps the payroll that'll help win a Cup and finally earn him a ring. At least that's the Shane Doan I've been seeing.

What do we lose by offering him that kind of contract? I know people talk highly about Oshie, but I'm sorry, I don't see it for the money we're offering him for what he's giving us; I'd ship him out for cash and picks* and make a bid for Shane. We've got the reputation of being a players team and with what we're loading up with, Shane might consider a stint in Blue, heck, Hawerchuk did. If Tarasenko and Schwartz do jump and perform the way we want to, with a healthy Perron, a healthy AMac and Shane on-board plus everything else we got, I can see us having a real, legit shot at the Cup.

* I say cash and picks because the general consensus seems to be that the new ownership lacks fundage and I can't honestly see us getting anything worth writing home for, for Oshie beyond a few picks, maybe two third liners. I'm sorry, I might be stupid by saying all this, but I can't see it. Fan favorite in the STL doesn't equate player teams will sign for zillions or trade A-list players for. That's just me.


If Oshie is traded for a couple 3rd rounders, it would go down as one of the worst trades in Blues history.
You seriously underestimate the value Oshie has to this club and how valuable the league thinks* he is.
He plays in all situations, has a scoring touch, hits a ton, is young, and has yet to reach his prime...plus he brings folks into the building.
Any team would love to have him.
I'm not saying he is the next Shanahan, but he is a very valuable player.

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* Not every GM works for Toronto.

What will brings folks into the building is having a nice Cup to brag about.

I think high enough of Oshie's 'Potential' to cash him out and combine money for Doan.


Agreed.

I love Oshie, but if he really thinks he's worth over 4.5 a year over 5 or more years.......

I do't think anyone would sign him let alone trade you for him.

I LOVE want he offers, but has has to realize that monetarily....it simply doesn't command much.

Based on last year, I would pay Halak, Backes, McD,Shatty, Pie, Bergie, and DP all more then I'd ever consider giving Oshie.

I love Oshie, I have his Jersey, jersey shirt, he's my daughter's favorite....but that does not compute to monetary value. I love him.....I love him at about 3.5 mill a year. If he wants 4.5 ......don't let the door hit you in the ass.
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Re: Shane Doan

Postby STLADOGG » Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:16 pm

I meant 4 years 30 million if anyone was doing the math at 7.5 a year.
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Re: Shane Doan

Postby glen a richter » Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:56 pm

Halak was the benefactor of a very good defensive system, much like Roman Turek was. Many goalies could be interchanged with him and do as or nearly as good. I wouldn't cry my eyes out if Halak walked when his contract was up and Allen, Binnington, Elliott, or pretty much anyone else replaced him.
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Re: Shane Doan

Postby glen a richter » Sun Jul 15, 2012 8:01 pm

BTW, the team that offered Doan the ridiculous contract was Winnipeg.
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Re: Shane Doan

Postby DaDitka » Sun Jul 15, 2012 8:15 pm

glen a richter wrote:Halak was the benefactor of a very good defensive system, much like Roman Turek was.



Even if that is true...and I think a lot of it is......after the first month, Halak was actually much better then Elliott, so no matter where you spread the credit or how you twist it, Halak was, is, and will be better then Elliot......just sayn'
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Re: Shane Doan

Postby glen a richter » Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:04 pm

DaDitka wrote:
glen a richter wrote:Halak was the benefactor of a very good defensive system, much like Roman Turek was.



Even if that is true...and I think a lot of it is......after the first month, Halak was actually much better then Elliott, so no matter where you spread the credit or how you twist it, Halak was, is, and will be better then Elliot......just sayn'


Yet they both won at a great clip once Hitchcock took over. The series against LA excluded, of course. The whole team shat a brick though, not just Elliott.
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Re: Shane Doan

Postby DaDitka » Mon Jul 16, 2012 6:49 am

glen a richter wrote:
DaDitka wrote:
glen a richter wrote:Halak was the benefactor of a very good defensive system, much like Roman Turek was.



Even if that is true...and I think a lot of it is......after the first month, Halak was actually much better then Elliott, so no matter where you spread the credit or how you twist it, Halak was, is, and will be better then Elliot......just sayn'


Yet they both won at a great clip once Hitchcock took over. The series against LA excluded, of course. The whole team shat a brick though, not just Elliott.


Agreed, and I'm not trying to knock Elliott....I just get quite frustrated with those that believe Elliott not only outplayed Halak, but they think he 'greatly' outplayed him.....that's just not true.
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Re: Shane Doan

Postby philco_3 » Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:33 pm

glen a richter wrote:BTW, the team that offered Doan the ridiculous contract was Winnipeg.


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Re: Shane Doan

Postby Oaklandblue » Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:12 pm

WaukeeBlues wrote:
Oaklandblue wrote:
glen a richter wrote:Oakland, did you author that captivating book "How to alienate fans without really trying"?

We are fortunate you aren't Army in disguise.


...I'd like to see us win, that's all...


Umm... after one playoff appearance in however many years its been, I would consider a Central Division crown, 5 game beatdown of the Sharks and a loss to the eventual Stanley Cup Champions a pretty good year.

For whatever reason: Hitchcock, our younger guys finally turning the corner, increased leadership and accountability... we turned a corner this year. We got back into the playoffs, and beat a team with a plethora of playoff experience under its belt.

Ignoring the Kings' most recent run to the cup (nearly unprecedented in NHL history) a cup isn't built in a day or a year. We made progress, our core is there, I think we need another top 4 D-man more than anything right now and unfortuantely didn't make it happen in free agency. But I think trading Oshie would be a tragic mistake. He's a fan favorite BECAUSE of what he does on the ice for us: hits like a train, can dangle when he has the space and time, has an offensive touch and is a workhorse. Those types aren't a dime a dozen in this league.


Defence and two of the hottest netminders in the league carried us. Note the majority of low-scoring games that are part of that crown. We made the point; we got D as far as the eye can see, but if we can't score more than one goal a game, especially when we come up against teams that have lines of firepower, who we've either split games with or gotten pounded by, what's the point?

If Oshie goes to Arbitration and is demanding 3.5-4m, which I feel he will, would you rather pay him or use the money to get Doan. That's the question because like it or not, Oshie is going to want to get paid and paid big. So which way do you go? Oshie has a lot of gall to demand big money after coming off a good season after a miserable season and being given a one-year 'Move it or lose it' contract. Do we really need anymore players like that?

I'd sign Doan, for one reason: He doesn't vanish during the playoffs; he ramps up and he goes to war. He said he'd go out and score against LA and what'd he do? He scored two goals and they won that game, lost to the Kings but still made a statement: He ain't giving up and you'll know he was there. Those players ain't a dime a dozen, neither is the loyalty Doan gives and commands, which to me is worth more than what loyalty Oshie commands.

For 2-3, I'd sign Oshie. Anything more and he can Free Agent himself to Winnipeg for all I care.
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Re: Shane Doan

Postby philco_3 » Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:25 pm

Newest reports say if he doesnt sign in Phoenix there it will cost 30million for 4 years.
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Re: Shane Doan

Postby Oaklandblue » Sun Jul 29, 2012 1:56 am

philco_3 wrote:Newest reports say if he doesnt sign in Phoenix there it will cost 30million for 4 years.


Considering how awesome our goal-scoring corps looks like, I'd say pay the man. Him or Ryan, at this point I don't care which. Cause if you're not willing to pay the money now while we got a solid group that just needs to SCORE some goals and they've got a shot at it, then what happens when Pie asks for that much?

Backes?

Heck, Halak even?

You going to pay base minnimum, develop talent and let it go? If the front office won't take the team seriously (As in, to actually set out to seriously go after and WIN the Cup), it's not a wonder that we've never won a Cup.
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Re: Shane Doan

Postby glen a richter » Sun Jul 29, 2012 10:26 am

Oakland, if the Blues overpay for anyone, Doan, Ryan, whoever... how do you propose they retain the services of Pie and Shatty down the pike? Not to mention everyone else who will be due for a big raise. I only mention Pie and Shatty because to me, those two are the MacInnis and Pronger of the team. They're still young, they're still getting better and they're already one of the best defensive duos in the league. Lose either or both and it won't matter who we have putting the puck in the net. Unless you truly believe that guys like Schmaltz, Cole, Fairchild, Ponich, etc... will all be as good or better than Pie and Shatty.

Let's give Schwartz and Tarasenko a couple years to get their groove and prove themselves capable of scoring at a decent clip before we go ahead and risk losing our top two defenders for lack of money.

I realize that neither, especially Tank, has proven anything at this level but let's not forget that scouts did, at least once, say that Tank's development was actually ahead of Ovechkin's at the same point. If we score the same type of player it'll be the biggest steal in the draft since the Penguins "won" the Crosby lottery and gone will be the complaints of a stagnant offense in St. Louis.
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Re: Shane Doan

Postby Oaklandblue » Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:43 am

glen a richter wrote:Oakland, if the Blues overpay for anyone, Doan, Ryan, whoever... how do you propose they retain the services of Pie and Shatty down the pike? Not to mention everyone else who will be due for a big raise. I only mention Pie and Shatty because to me, those two are the MacInnis and Pronger of the team. They're still young, they're still getting better and they're already one of the best defensive duos in the league. Lose either or both and it won't matter who we have putting the puck in the net. Unless you truly believe that guys like Schmaltz, Cole, Fairchild, Ponich, etc... will all be as good or better than Pie and Shatty.

Let's give Schwartz and Tarasenko a couple years to get their groove and prove themselves capable of scoring at a decent clip before we go ahead and risk losing our top two defenders for lack of money.

I realize that neither, especially Tank, has proven anything at this level but let's not forget that scouts did, at least once, say that Tank's development was actually ahead of Ovechkin's at the same point. If we score the same type of player it'll be the biggest steal in the draft since the Penguins "won" the Crosby lottery and gone will be the complaints of a stagnant offense in St. Louis.


I was throwing names out at one point, use any on the team, I think any one works to illustrate my point (see below). Pie and Shatty, I so agree with you about.

I don't like the unknown. There's no way of telling if Tank and Schwartz will turn out to be the next Overcheck, Hull, etc. or if they wind up the next Boyes, EJ, etc. Let's be honest here, there's no way. That's kind of why they're called amateurs, cause you don't know what they'll do til they've done it, and I don't mean that in a money sort of way cause they do get paid in the Minors. I'd like us to have some sort of sound scoring base that will provide results, not possibly, not based on scouts, minors stats adjusted or someone's grandmother whose seen it all, but I'm weird like that.

My point above is okay, say for the sake of argument that Tank is the next Brett Hull and he comes flying out the doors and Schwartz follows along the same lines. We're not willing to spend big money period, not even big money on someone like Doan or Ryan, so when Tank and Schwartz, or Pie and Shatty, or whoever have you before UFA, how do we afford keeping them if they play up to par?

At some point the organization has to say 'We want to Win' and invest the money. If we're going to be cheap and run a cheap organization, does that mean we shouldn't expect more than cheap results?

Rangers, Flyers, Wild, Kings didn't get anywhere by being cheap. Let's remember that. Big market or small, new owners or old, if you want to win, there is a point you come to where you have to invest beyond draft picks and <5m contracts in a climate where elites are going to demand, and get, top dollar. Where will that put us?
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Re: Shane Doan

Postby glen a richter » Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:09 am

That would be all well and good if the team hadn't just undergone an ownership change and had rocky books. Let's give new ownership a chance to get things organized in the financial area before we go calling for big name acquisitions. You can't buy a Porsche if you don't have the money.
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Re: Shane Doan

Postby DaDitka » Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:07 pm

glen a richter wrote: You can't buy a Porsche if you don't have the money.


Obviously you've never heard of Insta-Credit Auto Mart :wink:
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Re: Shane Doan

Postby glen a richter » Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:46 pm

DaDitka wrote:
glen a richter wrote: You can't buy a Porsche if you don't have the money.


Obviously you've never heard of Insta-Credit Auto Mart :wink:


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