Alex Pietrangelo talks break off for St. Louis Blues

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Alex Pietrangelo talks break off for St. Louis Blues

Postby ProngerBlues44 » Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:53 am

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-puck- ... --nhl.html

Puck Daddy wrote:The St. Louis Blues announced on Wednesday morning that restricted free agent defenseman Alex Pietrangelo would not be on the Blues’ roster at the start of training camp.

“Talks between the Blues and Alex’s camp have broken off for now and Alex will not be reporting for our camp today,” said GM Doug Armstrong.

As we covered previously, the Blues were prepared for life without Alex Pietrangelo during training camp. The contract talks with Petro involved a max term contract somewhere between Erik Karlsson ($6.5 million AAV over seven years) or Drew Doughty ($7 million AAV over 8 years) money.

Andy Strickland recently opined on that contract’s issues:

The Pietrangelo contract is a complicated one. Not necessarily because of the dollars but with no arbitration deadline to work off of both sides have the luxury of standing firm for as long as they want. Technically the two sides have until December 1st, the deadline restricted free agents have to sign if they want to play NHL hockey this season.

Ugh. Well that’s not good.

Armstrong has been steadfast that Pietrangelo will be with the St. Louis Blues this season because he has faith that the process just needs time to play out and because, we assume, he knows the offer sheet system in the NHL is a toothless joke.


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Re: Alex Pietrangelo talks break off for St. Louis Blues

Postby dmiles2186 » Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:15 am

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Re: Alex Pietrangelo talks break off for St. Louis Blues

Postby Kreegz2 » Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:57 am

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Re: Alex Pietrangelo talks break off for St. Louis Blues

Postby AlsWoodenStick » Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:41 am

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Re: Alex Pietrangelo talks break off for St. Louis Blues

Postby cardsfan04 » Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:41 am

This is the first time I've actually gotten worried about this. I didn't think anything would happen until training camp, but I didn't think training camp would mark a stall in talks either.

Also, if it's true that he shunned an 8 year/$6 mil AAV offer in hopes of an 8 year/$7mil AAV offer, that pisses me off. I don't have any super strong feelings about what his contract should be (bridge contract vs longterm). But, 8/$6AAV seems like a really good offer from the Blues to somebody coming off a somewhat down year (not bad, just not Norris-esque) and hasn't proven he will be a perennial Norris contender. Don't get me wrong, I fully expect that he will live up to his hype, but he hasn't yet. So, 8/$48 seems more than fair for what he has done.
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Re: Alex Pietrangelo talks break off for St. Louis Blues

Postby dmiles2186 » Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:09 pm



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Re: Alex Pietrangelo talks break off for St. Louis Blues

Postby ViPeRx007 » Wed Sep 11, 2013 1:54 pm

dmiles2186 wrote:



At any cost? I'm not sure how I feel about this....
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Re: Alex Pietrangelo talks break off for St. Louis Blues

Postby cardsfan04 » Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:38 pm

ViPeRx007 wrote:
dmiles2186 wrote:



At any cost? I'm not sure how I feel about this....


I wouldn't read too much into that. If he was going to give into any cost, Pietro would have already been signed. I think the point is that it will work out at some point, not that we're going to sign him at all costs.
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Re: Alex Pietrangelo talks break off for St. Louis Blues

Postby cprice12 » Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:57 pm

I've been clear where my opinion sits on this mess.
Right now, Petro hasn't proven he is worth what he and his agent are asking. I'm glad they aren't caving in.

8 years at $6 million per is more than he is worth right now. And if that was indeed the offer that Petro turned down...then screw him. If he wanted more money, he should have played better last year. Period.
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Re: Alex Pietrangelo talks break off for St. Louis Blues

Postby Oaklandblue » Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:14 am

cprice12 wrote:I've been clear where my opinion sits on this mess.
Right now, Petro hasn't proven he is worth what he and his agent are asking. I'm glad they aren't caving in.

8 years at $6 million per is more than he is worth right now. And if that was indeed the offer that Petro turned down...then screw him. If he wanted more money, he should have played better last year. Period.


We all learned from the Luongo situation, you don't pay someone more than they're worth and tradeable for, on the common market. Pie is not worth more than 3m. That's a fact, unless you want to explain to David Backes, our Captain, who IS worth closer to 5 why he's only getting 4 and Pie's asking for twice that for an output on paper that's closer to a 2nd-3rd line D-Man.

I'm actually curious what ace Pie's agent is holding. Pie's an RFA, we trade him and some others for a usable scorer. We don't have time for this nonsense, if he's holding out like this, he's in it for himself, not the team. Let him seek employment elsewhere.
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Re: Alex Pietrangelo talks break off for St. Louis Blues

Postby dmiles2186 » Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:06 am

Oaklandblue wrote:on the common market. Pie is not worth more than 3m.


If Petro were a UFA, he would definitely be worth more than $3m on the open market. Are you kidding me? David friggin' Clarkson got a deal worth almost $6m per season. Petro is one of the premier young defenders in the league. He's had one down year and if you look at the numbers, it wasn't all that bad really. His rookie and second seasons were outstanding. I'm just not sure how you could say Petro wouldn't be worth $3m on the open market with a straight face. Jackman and Brewer once had $4m per year deals. This is a league that overpays for defenseman.
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Re: Alex Pietrangelo talks break off for St. Louis Blues

Postby Nyghtewynd » Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:31 am

Until the season starts and he isn't in uniform, I don't care. Negotiations are negotiations. If you don't have at least one person walk away at least once, you aren't trying.
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Re: Alex Pietrangelo talks break off for St. Louis Blues

Postby cprice12 » Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:53 am

dmiles2186 wrote:
Oaklandblue wrote:on the common market. Pie is not worth more than 3m.


If Petro were a UFA, he would definitely be worth more than $3m on the open market. Are you kidding me? David friggin' Clarkson got a deal worth almost $6m per season. Petro is one of the premier young defenders in the league. He's had one down year and if you look at the numbers, it wasn't all that bad really. His rookie and second seasons were outstanding. I'm just not sure how you could say Petro wouldn't be worth $3m on the open market with a straight face. Jackman and Brewer once had $4m per year deals. This is a league that overpays for defenseman.


Well, numbers don't tell the story about how Petro played last year...and rarely do G, A, & +/- define how good a defensman is anyway.
There aren't stats on failing to hold the puck in at the blue line, or mishandling the puck...things like that.
I'm sorry, but Petro was Brewer-like at times last year as far as making stupid mistakes with the puck. He was supposed to have a Norris caliber season and he was probably only the 3rd or 4th best d-man on our team. He had a down year in only his 3rd season, and has only had one great year. That's just too small a sample size.
I think (and hope) that he might be a great defensman, he has the tools, you can see the talent is there...but Eric Johnson had that hype. So did Eric Brewer. I'm glad we didn't give EJ a huge, long term contract.
Just because some teams stupidly overpay for certain players, doesn't mean that Petro is automatically worth that or more. I understand that the market drives the prices, but market anomalies shouldn't be factored in, nor should they trump fair value for other players...and the Blues understand that. Those kinds of contracts aren't he norm and should be treated as such.

The league may overpay for defensemen every now and then, but the Blues don't. The Blues rarely overpay for anyone...and if they do, it's a short term conract that won't handcuff them financially for 8 years.
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Re: Alex Pietrangelo talks break off for St. Louis Blues

Postby kodos » Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:06 am

Oaklandblue wrote:
cprice12 wrote:I've been clear where my opinion sits on this mess.
Right now, Petro hasn't proven he is worth what he and his agent are asking. I'm glad they aren't caving in.

8 years at $6 million per is more than he is worth right now. And if that was indeed the offer that Petro turned down...then screw him. If he wanted more money, he should have played better last year. Period.


We all learned from the Luongo situation, you don't pay someone more than they're worth and tradeable for, on the common market. Pie is not worth more than 3m. That's a fact, unless you want to explain to David Backes, our Captain, who IS worth closer to 5 why he's only getting 4 and Pie's asking for twice that for an output on paper that's closer to a 2nd-3rd line D-Man.

I'm actually curious what ace Pie's agent is holding. Pie's an RFA, we trade him and some others for a usable scorer. We don't have time for this nonsense, if he's holding out like this, he's in it for himself, not the team. Let him seek employment elsewhere.


David Backes who scored 6 goals last year?

If Peitrangelo were suddenly a free agent, he would get a 7 year 70ish million dollar deal. I guarantee it.

Prices for players go up. The amount Backes was able to sign for a few years ago is not the same amount he would be able to sign for today.
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Re: Alex Pietrangelo talks break off for St. Louis Blues

Postby STLADOGG » Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:28 am

Guess what guys? When Pietrangelo signs with us; it will just like making a trade!! lol
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Re: Alex Pietrangelo talks break off for St. Louis Blues

Postby dmiles2186 » Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:54 am

cprice12 wrote:
dmiles2186 wrote:
Oaklandblue wrote:on the common market. Pie is not worth more than 3m.


If Petro were a UFA, he would definitely be worth more than $3m on the open market. Are you kidding me? David friggin' Clarkson got a deal worth almost $6m per season. Petro is one of the premier young defenders in the league. He's had one down year and if you look at the numbers, it wasn't all that bad really. His rookie and second seasons were outstanding. I'm just not sure how you could say Petro wouldn't be worth $3m on the open market with a straight face. Jackman and Brewer once had $4m per year deals. This is a league that overpays for defenseman.


Well, numbers don't tell the story about how Petro played last year...and rarely do G, A, & +/- define how good a defensman is anyway.
There aren't stats on failing to hold the puck in at the blue line, or mishandling the puck...things like that.
I'm sorry, but Petro was Brewer-like at times last year as far as making stupid mistakes with the puck. He was supposed to have a Norris caliber season and he was probably only the 3rd or 4th best d-man on our team. He had a down year in only his 3rd season, and has only had one great year. That's just too small a sample size.
I think (and hope) that he might be a great defensman, he has the tools, you can see the talent is there...but Eric Johnson had that hype. So did Eric Brewer. I'm glad we didn't give EJ a huge, long term contract.
Just because some teams stupidly overpay for certain players, doesn't mean that Petro is automatically worth that or more. I understand that the market drives the prices, but market anomalies shouldn't be factored in, nor should they trump fair value for other players...and the Blues understand that. Those kinds of contracts aren't he norm and should be treated as such.

The league may overpay for defensemen every now and then, but the Blues don't. The Blues rarely overpay for anyone...and if they do, it's a short term conract that won't handcuff them financially for 8 years.


I get that the stats don't all tell the tale. I realize Petro wasn't at his best last year, but once J-Bouw became his partner, he settled down a bit. I'm just confused by all this Petro bashing. Here's a guy we all would have KILLED for when Brewer was our #1, now we've got him and we're ripping him apart.

An 8 year deal is tough to swallow, but as I said in the other Petro thread, if you sign him to a bridge contract of, say, 2 years, and then in that 2nd year he wins the Norris...now you're paying out the wazoo whether you like it or not. I suppose you might say he's earned the big contract and the huge amount of money, but it's still a risk.

I'm not opposed to a bridge deal, but if you signed Petro at 6 or 6.5 per this year, that could be a bargain in 3-4 years.
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Re: Alex Pietrangelo talks break off for St. Louis Blues

Postby sseagle » Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:57 am

dmiles2186 wrote:
cprice12 wrote:
dmiles2186 wrote:
Oaklandblue wrote:on the common market. Pie is not worth more than 3m.


If Petro were a UFA, he would definitely be worth more than $3m on the open market. Are you kidding me? David friggin' Clarkson got a deal worth almost $6m per season. Petro is one of the premier young defenders in the league. He's had one down year and if you look at the numbers, it wasn't all that bad really. His rookie and second seasons were outstanding. I'm just not sure how you could say Petro wouldn't be worth $3m on the open market with a straight face. Jackman and Brewer once had $4m per year deals. This is a league that overpays for defenseman.


Well, numbers don't tell the story about how Petro played last year...and rarely do G, A, & +/- define how good a defensman is anyway.
There aren't stats on failing to hold the puck in at the blue line, or mishandling the puck...things like that.
I'm sorry, but Petro was Brewer-like at times last year as far as making stupid mistakes with the puck. He was supposed to have a Norris caliber season and he was probably only the 3rd or 4th best d-man on our team. He had a down year in only his 3rd season, and has only had one great year. That's just too small a sample size.
I think (and hope) that he might be a great defensman, he has the tools, you can see the talent is there...but Eric Johnson had that hype. So did Eric Brewer. I'm glad we didn't give EJ a huge, long term contract.
Just because some teams stupidly overpay for certain players, doesn't mean that Petro is automatically worth that or more. I understand that the market drives the prices, but market anomalies shouldn't be factored in, nor should they trump fair value for other players...and the Blues understand that. Those kinds of contracts aren't he norm and should be treated as such.

The league may overpay for defensemen every now and then, but the Blues don't. The Blues rarely overpay for anyone...and if they do, it's a short term conract that won't handcuff them financially for 8 years.


I get that the stats don't all tell the tale. I realize Petro wasn't at his best last year, but once J-Bouw became his partner, he settled down a bit. I'm just confused by all this Petro bashing. Here's a guy we all would have KILLED for when Brewer was our #1, now we've got him and we're ripping him apart.

An 8 year deal is tough to swallow, but as I said in the other Petro thread, if you sign him to a bridge contract of, say, 2 years, and then in that 2nd year he wins the Norris...now you're paying out the wazoo whether you like it or not. I suppose you might say he's earned the big contract and the huge amount of money, but it's still a risk.

I'm not opposed to a bridge deal, but if you signed Petro at 6 or 6.5 per this year, that could be a bargain in 3-4 years.

Ok so we sign him for 6.2-6.4 per for 8, he wins two Norris trophies... He's holding out again for damn sure, contracts be damned!
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Re: Alex Pietrangelo talks break off for St. Louis Blues

Postby cprice12 » Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:25 pm

kodos wrote:If Peitrangelo were suddenly a free agent, he would get a 7 year 70ish million dollar deal. I guarantee it.


There is no way he would get $10 million per. Not based on his body of work so far in his career.
$10 million would make him the highest paid defenseman in the NHL this season. I just don't see that happening if he were suddenly a free agent.
He'd get $7 million from someone I guess. But that might be about it.
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Re: Alex Pietrangelo talks break off for St. Louis Blues

Postby cprice12 » Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:12 pm

dmiles2186 wrote:
cprice12 wrote:
dmiles2186 wrote:
Oaklandblue wrote:on the common market. Pie is not worth more than 3m.


If Petro were a UFA, he would definitely be worth more than $3m on the open market. Are you kidding me? David friggin' Clarkson got a deal worth almost $6m per season. Petro is one of the premier young defenders in the league. He's had one down year and if you look at the numbers, it wasn't all that bad really. His rookie and second seasons were outstanding. I'm just not sure how you could say Petro wouldn't be worth $3m on the open market with a straight face. Jackman and Brewer once had $4m per year deals. This is a league that overpays for defenseman.


Well, numbers don't tell the story about how Petro played last year...and rarely do G, A, & +/- define how good a defensman is anyway.
There aren't stats on failing to hold the puck in at the blue line, or mishandling the puck...things like that.
I'm sorry, but Petro was Brewer-like at times last year as far as making stupid mistakes with the puck. He was supposed to have a Norris caliber season and he was probably only the 3rd or 4th best d-man on our team. He had a down year in only his 3rd season, and has only had one great year. That's just too small a sample size.
I think (and hope) that he might be a great defensman, he has the tools, you can see the talent is there...but Eric Johnson had that hype. So did Eric Brewer. I'm glad we didn't give EJ a huge, long term contract.
Just because some teams stupidly overpay for certain players, doesn't mean that Petro is automatically worth that or more. I understand that the market drives the prices, but market anomalies shouldn't be factored in, nor should they trump fair value for other players...and the Blues understand that. Those kinds of contracts aren't he norm and should be treated as such.

The league may overpay for defensemen every now and then, but the Blues don't. The Blues rarely overpay for anyone...and if they do, it's a short term conract that won't handcuff them financially for 8 years.


I get that the stats don't all tell the tale. I realize Petro wasn't at his best last year, but once J-Bouw became his partner, he settled down a bit. I'm just confused by all this Petro bashing. Here's a guy we all would have KILLED for when Brewer was our #1, now we've got him and we're ripping him apart.

An 8 year deal is tough to swallow, but as I said in the other Petro thread, if you sign him to a bridge contract of, say, 2 years, and then in that 2nd year he wins the Norris...now you're paying out the wazoo whether you like it or not. I suppose you might say he's earned the big contract and the huge amount of money, but it's still a risk.

I'm not opposed to a bridge deal, but if you signed Petro at 6 or 6.5 per this year, that could be a bargain in 3-4 years.


I'm not all of a sudden bashing Petro. I talked about him last year in here and on Let's Go Blues Radio and said how disappointing his play was. I was just being a realist. He wasn't good last year and I don't think he should be rewarded with a huge contract after last season's performance.
I don't want him going anywhere. I want him to sign here. But I also don't want him holding out trying to force the Blues into paying a ridiculous contract that he doesn't deserve. Because if he gets it, and if he never lives up to the hype, then we'll all hate him because of his salary and because it will handcuff the team and possibly prevent future moves due to us having too much money tied up in him.

I am hearing things like, "if he wins a couple Norris trophies, he'll be a bargain in 5 years." Yeah, well, if Oshie wins a scoring title, he'll be a bargain too. Petro needs to play a whole hell of a lot better before he is going to win a Norris trophy.

I'd rather pay an actual Norris trophy winner, Norris trophy winner money....instead of paying a player Norris trophy winner money and hoping he gets better and eventually wins one.

A high dollar ($7 million), long term contract (7+ years) for Petro is just a really bad idea right now.
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Re: Alex Pietrangelo talks break off for St. Louis Blues

Postby kodos » Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:43 pm

Well, the last few elite defenseman that got contracts on the open market went for $98 million over 13 years and $110 million over 14 years.

Heck, our old pal Dennis Wideman signed for 5 years at 5.25 million per. Are we saying that Peitrangelo isn't 20% better than Dennis Wideman?
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