Screw Miller

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Re: Screw Miller

Postby glen a richter » Thu Jan 30, 2014 8:06 pm

If you're arguing we need to make room for players to come up, we could do well to unload some of the young d-men instead. Rattie and Jaskin will naturally work their way into the lineup (and eventually Andronov, Carrier and Kurker, possibly, depending on their development). There is, however, a gigantic roadblock in defense. Pie, Shatty and Bouw aren't going anywhere for a while, Polak and Cole will be staying, so that leaves Jax, Cola and Leopold all of whom will probably be gone next year (maybe not Jax). You have Edmundson, Hakanpaa, Shields, Fairchild, Vanelli, Schmaltz, just to get the list started, and the odds are pretty decent they draft another d-man this time. I'm a big fan of dumping Stewart and Berglund as an addition by subtraction move (and if that nets us Miller then super) but given our resources, is it unfathomable that we could trade Halak+Berglund+the 1st rounder (conditional on the Blues winning the cup, 2nd rounder if they don't) for Miller and Moulson and Stewart+Edmundson+something for Ryan Callahan? Inserting Moulson and Cally into the lineup in place of Stewart and Berglund alone would be a huge positive for this team. Swapping out Halak for Miller, also. By the time we need to start replacing some d-men, Vanelli will be ready and you don't lose Jaskin or Rattie. Buffalo gets youth(ish) and a needed pick and a goalie who can get it done in the East, Rangers get the potential for some cap space which is why they want to trade Cally in the first place (supposedly) plus a solid defensive prospect to make up for foolishly giving up on DelZotto.
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Re: Screw Miller

Postby cardsfan04 » Thu Jan 30, 2014 8:16 pm

Oaklandblue wrote:
cardsfan04 wrote:
Oaklandblue wrote:
ViPeRx007 wrote:That's kind of a slap in the face to Halak. It makes it look like he's a chump, and he's certainly not. Halak for Miller straight up isn't really THAT much different is it? I think there's enough difference to where I'd feel more comfortable with Miller, sure, but to warrant 3 additional players and a pick? That's lunacy. Like kodos said, maybe one more extra player should be all they get.


Miller:

* Won the Vezina for best goaltender
* Has a save percentage 10+ points higher than Halak at .926 on not only the worst team in the league, but a team on track to be the lowest scoring team in NHL History
* Is known for being a major presence of leadership in the lockerroom and takes his position as goaltender as a calling, not as a paycheck.

Halak, while in Blue(2):

* Is a no-show to the playoffs in the last two years and the one game he played in, he lost.
* Owns ZERO franchise records.
* Has only ONE NHL Award to his name - that he shares with Brian Elliott.

Elliott, while in Blue:

*Was an All-Star
*Owns 3 Franchise Records: Best Save % in a season, Lowest GAA in a season and Most Shutouts in a Season.
*Played VERY well in the playoffs in the last two years and gave us a chance to win the majority of games he played in (his save% was .904 and .914 last year.).
* Won the Jennings with Jaro.

And yet, Elliott is the backup?


To make this short, the one slapping anyone in the face, has been Halak slapping us and he's been doing that with a 4m a year paycheck, while quite possibly feigning injury.


I agree that Miller is better than Halak, but that's a pretty slanted description of the three.

-I'll give ya the Vezina and save percentage as part of agreeing that he's better than Halak. Although it's worth noting that an extra .011 in save percentage works out to about 1 fewer goal every 100 shots (or 4 games given the Blues' 25.3/game). That could be good
-Miller "takes his position as goaltender as a calling, not as a paycheck." I don't even know what this means, or at least how it could be objectively backed up.(4)
-Halak didn't have bad playoff performances. He got hurt. Durability is a concern for him, but you make it sound like he choked.(3)
-Franchise records are pretty flimsy. But, if we're going down that road, he holds the Blues record for most career shutouts.(5)
-I don't see how you can mention playoff performances without mentioning Halak taking an 8 seed within 1 win of the Cup Finals.(1)


Contrary to popular belief:

1: Halak alone did not help the Habs to the door to the finals, in fact, he was pulled several times and swapped out with Price. One can argue and it would be an honest assesment, that the Habs success came from all the players and BOTH Netminders.

2: If you noticed, I said HALAK WHILE IN BLUE. I don't care what he did for another team, how has his tenure with us gone? I don't think any Blues fan would give a damn what Halak did for anyone else as much as caring how many rings Fuhr or Gretzky or anyone else had while IN BLUE. When they play for your team, you care what they do while on your team. Winning a Cup for another team doesn't win yours a Cup, and if that success doesn't translate as such, it's a bad trade. Besides, who wants to sit there and say how great a player was a half decade ago and why, oh why, haven't they won a major NHL award and/or the Cup since then, if they're so great?

3: How does a starting netminder help a team when he never plays? Yet everyone says he's better than anyone else we got and it's simply not true. You have to play to prove that. Halak riding pine isn't helping Halak win jack.

4: Ask any Sabres fan about Ryan Miller or read some of the interviews and outlooks on him. The guy is a leader.

5: Halak is tied with Glenn Hall with 16 for #1. Brian Elliott holds the record for a single season with 9 and has 12 total and has been with the Note for one year less than Halak, just as a comparison.


1. While I agree people exaggerate his performance by overlooking him being pulled, he still had a tremendous postseason.
2. I know you said while in Blue, but if the purpose of getting Miller is for the playoff run, I don't think it's wise to look only at 2 years where Halak was hurt in the playoffs and dismiss the bulk of his playoff experience. Also, it's worth pointing out that you are using Miller's experience while not on the Blues to argue for him.
3. Obviously he didn't help us from the bench. But, it seems like you're saying, "He can't play in the playoffs. He always gets hurt. But, don't talk about that time he played really well in the playoffs." He didn't choke for us in the playoffs. He didn't play poorly. He got hurt. If there's an issue here, it's his durability, not his playoff performance as a Blue.
4. That's still really subjective. I don't even mean that as a shot at Miller. I'm sure he's all that and a bag of potato chips. But, none of this is anything more than speculation by fans. There's no way to quantify how much either wants it or how many smiles in the lockerroom translates to a win. It's the kind of thing a talking head on TV says when they don't have anything of substance to say.
5. Halak had 16 going into the season. He now has 19.
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Re: Screw Miller

Postby cardsfan04 » Thu Jan 30, 2014 8:23 pm

Oaklandblue wrote:
cardsfan04 wrote:As for the trade mentioned above, it's way way way too much. I'd love to do Halak + Berglund or Stewart. That should be enough. And I'd like to think that the two of them are young enough to be intriguing. If not, I could go for Halak + a prospect. Halak+ Rattie maybe, but only if we have an extension in place at the time of the trade.


IF we got Miller, I'd go Halak + Stewart + a pick if we win the Cup and Rattie + Bergy on top of that if he signs an extension and Buffalo eats some money in the deal. We have to make room anyway for players to come up and we have to give Miller an incentive to stay (keep reading before you comment. The next two sentences are very important to this point).

It sounds like alot, but IF we go this route for Miller, we should be viewing him as a franchise netminder and if we are, we need to pay accordingly. IF not, we should look at other options or run three Netminders so we can get Allen accustomed to playing. We're far enough ahead to give Jake a few games to see where he's at. For all we know he's ready now and might be exactly what we're considering trading for.

Frankly, to get Stewart and Bergy off our ice, I'd ship them to Buffalo. I know, I'm mean, I'm just being honest. Give the people who WANT to win a shot to play.


I tihnk you're saying:

1. Halak + Stewart no matter what.
2. Add a pick if we win the Cup (I could go for that. Hell give them Backes, Tarasenko, Schwartz and Pietro if we win the Cup. Well, don't, but you get my point).
3. Berglund and Rattie if he signs an extension after the season

I'm fine with 1 and 2. But, I think 3 is too much. I'm fine going more than 1 and 2, but only a little more and only if an extension is already in place.

I'm not at all a fan of bringing up Allen this year though. He is nothing more than injury insurance. Any goalie decision we make is about this year's Cup run first and next year second. I'm not at all comfortable with giving Allen the starting job for the playoffs. And, if we're not doing that, bringing him up serves no purpose. Let him get experience in the AHL.
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Re: Screw Miller

Postby dmiles2186 » Thu Jan 30, 2014 8:42 pm

Oaklandblue wrote:
Halak, while in Blue:

* Is a no-show to the playoffs in the last two years and the one game he played in, he lost.
* Owns ZERO franchise records.


Allow me to pick this apart for a second.

1) Jaro did lose his only playoff game as a Blue....in overtime. It's not like they got blown out.
2) He's abeen a 'no show' in the playoffs due to injury, not performance.
3) If I'm not mistaken, Jaro Halak that owns 'zero' franchise record actually owns the franchise records for most shutouts, passing Mr. Glenn Hall.
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Re: Screw Miller

Postby ViPeRx007 » Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:36 pm

Miller:
SA: 1,272
SV%: .926
GAA: 2.61

Those are pretty dang good numbers for being on the worst team in the entire league. The Sabres have no offense. That's what loses them games. They manage to be right around the middle of the pack for GA/G and that can really only be attributed to one guy: Ryan Miller. Now imagine him on a team like the Blues. You can't deny that's at least a little bit intriguing. Halak has similar numbers (except way less in the SA department). Do you think they'd hold up if he was on the Sabres? That's the question that made me decide who I'd rather have.
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Re: Screw Miller

Postby tjk002 » Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:57 pm

Another point I was told is that Buffalo really isn't super interested in Stewart or Berglund. But the Blues need to dump some salary. That's the reason that Cole, Rattie and the pick are included. Stewart and Berglund really aren't part of the package that Buffalo wants. But I do agree, way too much to give up even if he does sign a 5 year deal with us. I wouldn't mine seeing us grab Thomas. But the problem is, no one is really interested in Halak. I think it will be interesting to see where he ends up signing next year because from what it was described to me, there is no way he'll be back here no matter what. I could be wrong, but just what I was told.
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Re: Screw Miller

Postby ViPeRx007 » Thu Jan 30, 2014 10:07 pm

tjk002 wrote:Another point I was told is that Buffalo really isn't super interested in Stewart or Berglund. But the Blues need to dump some salary. That's the reason that Cole, Rattie and the pick are included. Stewart and Berglund really aren't part of the package that Buffalo wants. But I do agree, way too much to give up even if he does sign a 5 year deal with us. I wouldn't mine seeing us grab Thomas. But the problem is, no one is really interested in Halak. I think it will be interesting to see where he ends up signing next year because from what it was described to me, there is no way he'll be back here no matter what. I could be wrong, but just what I was told.


Not interested in Stew or Bergs?!?! Can't say I blame them. I still say that Halak + Cole or Rattie should be enough. It shouldn't be all of them AND a pick. Is there a chance that's just the opening "silly" offer from the Sabres and there will be some negotiating? That sucks if that's their final offer and they won't budge.
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Re: Screw Miller

Postby Oaklandblue » Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:04 pm

dmiles2186 wrote:
Oaklandblue wrote:
Halak, while in Blue:

* Is a no-show to the playoffs in the last two years and the one game he played in, he lost.
* Owns ZERO franchise records.


Allow me to pick this apart for a second.

1) Jaro did lose his only playoff game as a Blue....in overtime. It's not like they got blown out.
2) He's abeen a 'no show' in the playoffs due to injury, not performance.
3) If I'm not mistaken, Jaro Halak that owns 'zero' franchise record actually owns the franchise records for most shutouts, passing Mr. Glenn Hall.


1. He still lost, blowout or otherwise.
2. True and I'll conceded this, but you're injured EVERY year for the playoffs save one game? How does that help us?
Mind, he's been a Blue for three years and Elliott has been our go-to guy. Now, maybe if Halak wasn't injured (What exactly is this injury that plagues him, anyway? Or are they different injuries?), he'd have done more or gotten more hardware, but we're seeing his numbers and he's got those of an NHL-calibre goaltender, nothing elite, nothing special.
3. You don't rank that until AFTER the season is over. Halak may get injured again or may end up with a bad run and Elliott gets 4 or 5 shutouts and takes #1. If the season ended right now, yes, Halak owns ONE record. But that's shutouts. Who owns the Save percentage and the GAA franchise record? I know that's being picky bitchy, but if we're going to sit down and lay out who has what, Halak doesn't have enough of anything to demand the money he's being paid. Based on hardware, records and statistics, Brian Elliott, on the other end, should be the one paid 4m, not Halak. Yet Ells gets bitched out at every opportunity for all sorts of things. No, he's not a starter, but he's reliable, durable and has accomplished enough to state the case that we should hold on to him. A Brian Elliott on sync is a VERY dangerous thing, almost like Quick in the playoffs. We saw that side of him where he shot to the stars and didn't fall down for a while. He has the ability to do that because he plays a solid system that is virtually impenetrable when his mind is in the right place. Halak lacks this ability.

Saying all of this, I think Halak is having a fantastic year and he's looked really damn good. This isn't about hating on him, it's about me saying I love him, but I love winning a Stanley Cup more and would be willing to pay any cost for the Note to win one, including trading him or anyone else to improve our chances and maybe find the missing piece of the puzzle.

If we have the ability, I'd want the best in goal, not what we can afford and right now we're in a unique position where we could upgrade in a few ways, give up some depth to have an improvement. This is how teams win championships.
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Re: Screw Miller

Postby Oaklandblue » Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:13 pm

cardsfan04 wrote:
Oaklandblue wrote:
cardsfan04 wrote:
Oaklandblue wrote:
ViPeRx007 wrote:That's kind of a slap in the face to Halak. It makes it look like he's a chump, and he's certainly not. Halak for Miller straight up isn't really THAT much different is it? I think there's enough difference to where I'd feel more comfortable with Miller, sure, but to warrant 3 additional players and a pick? That's lunacy. Like kodos said, maybe one more extra player should be all they get.


Miller:

* Won the Vezina for best goaltender
* Has a save percentage 10+ points higher than Halak at .926 on not only the worst team in the league, but a team on track to be the lowest scoring team in NHL History
* Is known for being a major presence of leadership in the lockerroom and takes his position as goaltender as a calling, not as a paycheck.

Halak, while in Blue(2):

* Is a no-show to the playoffs in the last two years and the one game he played in, he lost.
* Owns ZERO franchise records.
* Has only ONE NHL Award to his name - that he shares with Brian Elliott.

Elliott, while in Blue:

*Was an All-Star
*Owns 3 Franchise Records: Best Save % in a season, Lowest GAA in a season and Most Shutouts in a Season.
*Played VERY well in the playoffs in the last two years and gave us a chance to win the majority of games he played in (his save% was .904 and .914 last year.).
* Won the Jennings with Jaro.

And yet, Elliott is the backup?


To make this short, the one slapping anyone in the face, has been Halak slapping us and he's been doing that with a 4m a year paycheck, while quite possibly feigning injury.


I agree that Miller is better than Halak, but that's a pretty slanted description of the three.

-I'll give ya the Vezina and save percentage as part of agreeing that he's better than Halak. Although it's worth noting that an extra .011 in save percentage works out to about 1 fewer goal every 100 shots (or 4 games given the Blues' 25.3/game). That could be good
-Miller "takes his position as goaltender as a calling, not as a paycheck." I don't even know what this means, or at least how it could be objectively backed up.(4)
-Halak didn't have bad playoff performances. He got hurt. Durability is a concern for him, but you make it sound like he choked.(3)
-Franchise records are pretty flimsy. But, if we're going down that road, he holds the Blues record for most career shutouts.(5)
-I don't see how you can mention playoff performances without mentioning Halak taking an 8 seed within 1 win of the Cup Finals.(1)


Contrary to popular belief:

1: Halak alone did not help the Habs to the door to the finals, in fact, he was pulled several times and swapped out with Price. One can argue and it would be an honest assesment, that the Habs success came from all the players and BOTH Netminders.

2: If you noticed, I said HALAK WHILE IN BLUE. I don't care what he did for another team, how has his tenure with us gone? I don't think any Blues fan would give a damn what Halak did for anyone else as much as caring how many rings Fuhr or Gretzky or anyone else had while IN BLUE. When they play for your team, you care what they do while on your team. Winning a Cup for another team doesn't win yours a Cup, and if that success doesn't translate as such, it's a bad trade. Besides, who wants to sit there and say how great a player was a half decade ago and why, oh why, haven't they won a major NHL award and/or the Cup since then, if they're so great?

3: How does a starting netminder help a team when he never plays? Yet everyone says he's better than anyone else we got and it's simply not true. You have to play to prove that. Halak riding pine isn't helping Halak win jack.

4: Ask any Sabres fan about Ryan Miller or read some of the interviews and outlooks on him. The guy is a leader.

5: Halak is tied with Glenn Hall with 16 for #1. Brian Elliott holds the record for a single season with 9 and has 12 total and has been with the Note for one year less than Halak, just as a comparison.


1. While I agree people exaggerate his performance by overlooking him being pulled, he still had a tremendous postseason.
2. I know you said while in Blue, but if the purpose of getting Miller is for the playoff run, I don't think it's wise to look only at 2 years where Halak was hurt in the playoffs and dismiss the bulk of his playoff experience. Also, it's worth pointing out that you are using Miller's experience while not on the Blues to argue for him.
3. Obviously he didn't help us from the bench. But, it seems like you're saying, "He can't play in the playoffs. He always gets hurt. But, don't talk about that time he played really well in the playoffs." He didn't choke for us in the playoffs. He didn't play poorly. He got hurt. If there's an issue here, it's his durability, not his playoff performance as a Blue.
4. That's still really subjective. I don't even mean that as a shot at Miller. I'm sure he's all that and a bag of potato chips. But, none of this is anything more than speculation by fans. There's no way to quantify how much either wants it or how many smiles in the lockerroom translates to a win. It's the kind of thing a talking head on TV says when they don't have anything of substance to say.
5. Halak had 16 going into the season. He now has 19.


All I can do is compare who shows up and plays. Jaroslav Halak was "Injured" or whatever have you and couldn't play. So how does he help us in the playoffs? That alone tells the tale.

I can't compare Ryan Miller anywhere else than playing for the Sabres because he's only played for the Sabres lol. But his resume, including his PLAYOFF numbers on the worst team in the league tell his tale quite nicely. The fact he plays on the worst team and yet gives his best regardless is enough for me to sign him. That alone is something the Blues seem to historically have trouble embracing as an ethic.

As for #4, absolutely subjective, but Ryan Miller is showing an ethic alone that can give even the faintest credibility to those claims. Bad team. Bad situation, but you're keeping them in the game? What kind of guy does that? That's more than a paycheck.
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Re: Screw Miller

Postby Oaklandblue » Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:22 pm

cardsfan04 wrote:
Oaklandblue wrote:
cardsfan04 wrote:As for the trade mentioned above, it's way way way too much. I'd love to do Halak + Berglund or Stewart. That should be enough. And I'd like to think that the two of them are young enough to be intriguing. If not, I could go for Halak + a prospect. Halak+ Rattie maybe, but only if we have an extension in place at the time of the trade.


IF we got Miller, I'd go Halak + Stewart + a pick if we win the Cup and Rattie + Bergy on top of that if he signs an extension and Buffalo eats some money in the deal. We have to make room anyway for players to come up and we have to give Miller an incentive to stay (keep reading before you comment. The next two sentences are very important to this point).

It sounds like alot, but IF we go this route for Miller, we should be viewing him as a franchise netminder and if we are, we need to pay accordingly. IF not, we should look at other options or run three Netminders so we can get Allen accustomed to playing. We're far enough ahead to give Jake a few games to see where he's at. For all we know he's ready now and might be exactly what we're considering trading for.

Frankly, to get Stewart and Bergy off our ice, I'd ship them to Buffalo. I know, I'm mean, I'm just being honest. Give the people who WANT to win a shot to play.


I tihnk you're saying:

1. Halak + Stewart no matter what.
2. Add a pick if we win the Cup (I could go for that. Hell give them Backes, Tarasenko, Schwartz and Pietro if we win the Cup. Well, don't, but you get my point).
3. Berglund and Rattie if he signs an extension after the season

I'm fine with 1 and 2. But, I think 3 is too much. I'm fine going more than 1 and 2, but only a little more and only if an extension is already in place.

I'm not at all a fan of bringing up Allen this year though. He is nothing more than injury insurance. Any goalie decision we make is about this year's Cup run first and next year second. I'm not at all comfortable with giving Allen the starting job for the playoffs. And, if we're not doing that, bringing him up serves no purpose. Let him get experience in the AHL.


I was pondering it more as a Cap Dump as a whole and shedding what we didn't need, so we can bring up players with the will and ability to play in the NHL (who would also have the added perk of being a lot cheaper contracturally who would play hard and prove their way to a better contract while we're paying on the low end), rather than veterans who are eating money and playing at 'when I feel like it' levels.

The one thing I'm concerned with, and no one's really talked about this afaik, but we expect Stillman to spend to the Cap. The question is, do we have the money to do that?

We got the money we're running with now, for a large part, from selling the Rivermen. We have a shit deal with the Scott and it doesn't sound like we have a great deal of revenue coming in from the franchise, so what do we do?

Right now we're spending 60m. Can we afford to spend that for the next few years? If not, we may have a bigger problem on our hands than a Bergy No-Timer.
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Re: Screw Miller

Postby Oaklandblue » Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:24 pm

tjk002 wrote:Another point I was told is that Buffalo really isn't super interested in Stewart or Berglund. But the Blues need to dump some salary. That's the reason that Cole, Rattie and the pick are included. Stewart and Berglund really aren't part of the package that Buffalo wants. But I do agree, way too much to give up even if he does sign a 5 year deal with us. I wouldn't mine seeing us grab Thomas. But the problem is, no one is really interested in Halak. I think it will be interesting to see where he ends up signing next year because from what it was described to me, there is no way he'll be back here no matter what. I could be wrong, but just what I was told.


I'd only do this if Buffalo agreed to eat a large chunk of Miller's money.
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Re: Screw Miller

Postby dmiles2186 » Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:46 am

Oaklandblue wrote:2. True and I'll conceded this, but you're injured EVERY year for the playoffs save one game? How does that help us?
Mind, he's been a Blue for three years and Elliott has been our go-to guy. Now, maybe if Halak wasn't injured (What exactly is this injury that plagues him, anyway? Or are they different injuries?), he'd have done more or gotten more hardware, but we're seeing his numbers and he's got those of an NHL-calibre goaltender, nothing elite, nothing special.


Yeah, this was totally Jaro's fault. TOTALLY.



I agree with you, he's not an elite goalie. But when it comes to injury, I give guys the benefit of the doubt. Jaro is a fiery guy, but he doesn't say a lot or show too much emotion. I'm just going out on a limb to guess that he didn't want sit out the last few years, but ultimately he couldn't go. Sometimes if a guy is hurt and guts through it, he could end up hurting the team because he can't play up to par. And Jaro has had a nagging groin injury the last few years, which could definitely harm a goalie's lateral movement.

But in the last 3 seasons, record-wise at least, the Blues have been one of the best teams in the league and Jaro (and Ells) have been a big part of that. The team/system works.
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Re: Screw Miller

Postby cardsfan04 » Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:58 am

Oaklandblue wrote:
cardsfan04 wrote:
Oaklandblue wrote:
cardsfan04 wrote:As for the trade mentioned above, it's way way way too much. I'd love to do Halak + Berglund or Stewart. That should be enough. And I'd like to think that the two of them are young enough to be intriguing. If not, I could go for Halak + a prospect. Halak+ Rattie maybe, but only if we have an extension in place at the time of the trade.


IF we got Miller, I'd go Halak + Stewart + a pick if we win the Cup and Rattie + Bergy on top of that if he signs an extension and Buffalo eats some money in the deal. We have to make room anyway for players to come up and we have to give Miller an incentive to stay (keep reading before you comment. The next two sentences are very important to this point).

It sounds like alot, but IF we go this route for Miller, we should be viewing him as a franchise netminder and if we are, we need to pay accordingly. IF not, we should look at other options or run three Netminders so we can get Allen accustomed to playing. We're far enough ahead to give Jake a few games to see where he's at. For all we know he's ready now and might be exactly what we're considering trading for.

Frankly, to get Stewart and Bergy off our ice, I'd ship them to Buffalo. I know, I'm mean, I'm just being honest. Give the people who WANT to win a shot to play.


I tihnk you're saying:

1. Halak + Stewart no matter what.
2. Add a pick if we win the Cup (I could go for that. Hell give them Backes, Tarasenko, Schwartz and Pietro if we win the Cup. Well, don't, but you get my point).
3. Berglund and Rattie if he signs an extension after the season

I'm fine with 1 and 2. But, I think 3 is too much. I'm fine going more than 1 and 2, but only a little more and only if an extension is already in place.

I'm not at all a fan of bringing up Allen this year though. He is nothing more than injury insurance. Any goalie decision we make is about this year's Cup run first and next year second. I'm not at all comfortable with giving Allen the starting job for the playoffs. And, if we're not doing that, bringing him up serves no purpose. Let him get experience in the AHL.


I was pondering it more as a Cap Dump as a whole and shedding what we didn't need, so we can bring up players with the will and ability to play in the NHL (who would also have the added perk of being a lot cheaper contracturally who would play hard and prove their way to a better contract while we're paying on the low end), rather than veterans who are eating money and playing at 'when I feel like it' levels.

The one thing I'm concerned with, and no one's really talked about this afaik, but we expect Stillman to spend to the Cap. The question is, do we have the money to do that?

We got the money we're running with now, for a large part, from selling the Rivermen. We have a shit deal with the Scott and it doesn't sound like we have a great deal of revenue coming in from the franchise, so what do we do?

Right now we're spending 60m. Can we afford to spend that for the next few years? If not, we may have a bigger problem on our hands than a Bergy No-Timer.


I don't think payroll is going down. I mean, it might, but not to the floor. I think Stillman's plan is to operate at a loss at first, hope to keep expenses roughly constant and to allow a good product to raise revenue. Let's say he's at 90 mil expenses, 85 mil revenue (5 mil loss). I made those numbers up. If he can increase revenue by 5% annually through increased ticket sales/prices and additional advertising revenue/corporate sales, he'll be in profit with this payroll before the end of season 4. Well, he'd be in profit in season 3, but midway through season 4 he'd have made enough profit to cover the loss in years 1 and 2.

I don't know if those numbers are realistic nor do I know what a realistic annual growth is. And, I imagine it would be very difficult to keep expenses as a constant. But, when I saw him spend to the cap this year, I figured his business model is something along those lines. Operate at a loss temporarily while your product starts to generate more revenue to make it up later.
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Re: Screw Miller

Postby kodos » Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:32 am

When does he get the concession and parking money back?
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Re: Screw Miller

Postby cardsfan04 » Fri Jan 31, 2014 12:17 pm

I believe Checketts signed a 20 year deal. I don't know what year he signed it though.
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Re: Screw Miller

Postby kodos » Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:28 pm

I just looked it up. It is 20 freaking years and it runs until 2028. Holy hell. It was completely front loaded.

The same with the TV deal with Fox. It goes through 2018 and was also almost completely front loaded, so the team is basically making nothing from TV and concession sales.

What the hell did Checketts do? What an asshole.
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Re: Screw Miller

Postby glen a richter » Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:39 pm

Is there an out clause?
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Re: Screw Miller

Postby kodos » Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:31 pm

I don't know. Probably not.

Reading around it seems that only 7 teams don't rent out the concession sales to a 3rd party. The big difference being that they probably get a decent yearly kickback, whereas Checketts frontloaded the deal so the next ownership group would get basically nothing.

The equally crappy TV deal luckily only goes to 2018.
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Re: Screw Miller

Postby cardsfan04 » Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:37 pm

How much do the Blues get for their TV deal?
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Re: Screw Miller

Postby cardsfan04 » Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:46 pm

I just found this. I think you have to take any Forbes team valuation with a humungous grain of salt. But, it's probably at least in the ballpark.

http://www.forbes.com/teams/st-louis-blues/
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