Screw Miller

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Re: Screw Miller

Postby Oaklandblue » Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:06 am

dmiles2186 wrote:
Oaklandblue wrote:2. True and I'll conceded this, but you're injured EVERY year for the playoffs save one game? How does that help us?
Mind, he's been a Blue for three years and Elliott has been our go-to guy. Now, maybe if Halak wasn't injured (What exactly is this injury that plagues him, anyway? Or are they different injuries?), he'd have done more or gotten more hardware, but we're seeing his numbers and he's got those of an NHL-calibre goaltender, nothing elite, nothing special.


Yeah, this was totally Jaro's fault. TOTALLY.



I agree with you, he's not an elite goalie. But when it comes to injury, I give guys the benefit of the doubt. Jaro is a fiery guy, but he doesn't say a lot or show too much emotion. I'm just going out on a limb to guess that he didn't want sit out the last few years, but ultimately he couldn't go. Sometimes if a guy is hurt and guts through it, he could end up hurting the team because he can't play up to par. And Jaro has had a nagging groin injury the last few years, which could definitely harm a goalie's lateral movement.

But in the last 3 seasons, record-wise at least, the Blues have been one of the best teams in the league and Jaro (and Ells) have been a big part of that. The team/system works.


You know, I have NO idea how I forgot about JackASS. OK, that wasn't Jaro's fault, I rescend that. My main point was, it doesn't matter how great we hear the guy is, or how great he was for some other team, what matters is what he does on our team. We acquire a player because we have certain faiths based on his background and stats that he'll benefit the team and be a piece of our puzzle. For the most part, due to injury, Jaro hasn't. And we don't need a player that is injured all the time that we can't rely on. For all we know, he'll wind up injured right before the playoffs again and so far his injury track record has been really bad. If he was posting Hasek numbers, I'd say let it ride, but Jaro has never been anything more than a serviceable goaltender and if an opportunity upgrades us and betters our chances for the Cup, in whole, then I think we should at the very least consider it. Jaro could be the nicest guy, hardest worker and toughest man in town, but it means nothing if he can't stay healthy enough to be in the pipes and post the numbers we need him to.

Elliott may be many negative things, but he's been reliable and durable. For a goaltender, to me, these are the two traits necessary to be a success in the position.

As a whole, the team has been a solid contender, not quite good enough to make the WCF, but good enough to make the playoffs. This means there may be some work still to be done. The Canes won a Cup by the acquisition of two players, iirc, and strength at goal. We are in a similar position. I don't think we're done yet to make the next level and I'm sold on Brian Elliott moreso than Halak due to track record as a Blue. If Halak was The One True Goalie, he'd own records and he'd have been an All-Star. But he's been injured, is that what everyone will say? Okay, fair enough. Anyone here want to sit down and tell me that right here, right now, Halak has what it takes from what we've seen this season to be a starter and take us into the playoffs? Simple answer: No. In fact, neither are.

Will that change when we enter the playoffs? VERY Possibly. But which do we do, take the greatest statistics of a player from half a decade ago, or a player who is running solid now, with a solid track record?

The answer to that should be really easy to answer.
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Re: Screw Miller

Postby drwoland » Sat Feb 01, 2014 7:24 pm

NOW can we shut the (Frank) up about Miller? Didn't seem to help them much in that 7-1 loss to the Avs where he gave up 5. If a few bad starts by Halak/the team are a good enough sample to trade for him, then this should be a good enough sample not to.

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Re: Screw Miller

Postby Oaklandblue » Sun Feb 02, 2014 2:06 am

drwoland wrote:NOW can we shut the (Frank) up about Miller? Didn't seem to help them much in that 7-1 loss to the Avs where he gave up 5. If a few bad starts by Halak/the team are a good enough sample to trade for him, then this should be a good enough sample not to.

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Let me make sure I'm reading this right. I'll start by posting the numbers your arrow is hiding:

PP: 3-5
SH: 2-2

So while the Sabres were on a POWER PLAY, the Avs scored 3 goals. And two goals while Shorthanded.

How the hell do you give up 3 goals on a Power Play? Was he screened?

See, Miller plays for the WORST team in the league, one that, once again, is on track to score the least amount of goals in NHL history. Their D, from what I've seen, consists of their netminder and two screens. That's about it.

Halak plays for the second best team in the league. The issue is, the last ten games, as a team, we've looked like utter shit. Halak hasn't been the best, but Halak has for the most part helped to try and keep us in the game. He was amazing against the Canes, imho.

The bottom line in this argument is their current season totals, not on wins losses, but on their #s as a goaltender.

On a deeply heavy D team, Halak is .915, 2.22
On the worst team, Miller is .925 (Good enough to be the 7th best), 2.68
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Re: Screw Miller

Postby STLADOGG » Sun Feb 02, 2014 12:21 pm

Oaklandblue wrote:
drwoland wrote:NOW can we shut the (Frank) up about Miller? Didn't seem to help them much in that 7-1 loss to the Avs where he gave up 5. If a few bad starts by Halak/the team are a good enough sample to trade for him, then this should be a good enough sample not to.

Image


Let me make sure I'm reading this right. I'll start by posting the numbers your arrow is hiding:

PP: 3-5
SH: 2-2

So while the Sabres were on a POWER PLAY, the Avs scored 3 goals. And two goals while Shorthanded.

How the hell do you give up 3 goals on a Power Play? Was he screened?

See, Miller plays for the WORST team in the league, one that, once again, is on track to score the least amount of goals in NHL history. Their D, from what I've seen, consists of their netminder and two screens. That's about it.

Halak plays for the second best team in the league. The issue is, the last ten games, as a team, we've looked like utter shit. Halak hasn't been the best, but Halak has for the most part helped to try and keep us in the game. He was amazing against the Canes, imho.

The bottom line in this argument is their current season totals, not on wins losses, but on their #s as a goaltender.

On a deeply heavy D team, Halak is .915, 2.22
On the worst team, Miller is .925 (Good enough to be the 7th best), 2.68

Yeah, I thought this was a pretty shitty example of why he isn't good enough.
I like Miller but I have confidence in Halak.
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Re: Screw Miller

Postby cardsfan04 » Sun Feb 02, 2014 12:46 pm

I could be mistaken, bit I think he was being somewhat facetious. It seems that whenever we lose a game, people call for Miller even if Halak wasn't why we lost. I think he was just doing that in reverse, not saying that Miller is bad.
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Re: Screw Miller

Postby glen a richter » Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:41 pm

Not A Wings Fan said it before and I've been thinking it for a while: who says our tandem the rest of the season and for the immediate future can't be Miller/Allen? Who says we have to keep Halak OR Elliott when we can trade them both to address the need to upgrade at goal and get a bit more offense at the same time? Allen can learn more at the NHL level from Miller than he'll ever learn by backing up a guy who was a 1A or 1B but never a 1. Let him back up Miller for a couple seasons. No harm there. Remember: Mike Richter backed up (really split time with) John Vanbiesbrouck for a few seasons prior to taking over as #1 and promptly winning the Rags first cup in 54 years. Allen doesn't HAVE to step in right away as the #1, he can also benefit from being a solid #2 for a couple of seasons.
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Re: Screw Miller

Postby tjk002 » Tue Feb 04, 2014 3:10 pm

Rumors are that now the Caps and the Islanders are interested in Miller. Might we be looking elsewhere now? Brodeur?
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Re: Screw Miller

Postby cardsfan04 » Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:54 pm

I don't see us trading for Brodeur. Within reason, I'm in favor of trading for Miller, but my rationale for it isn't just the Cup run this year. I actually have a fair amount of confidence in Halak/Elliott. While Miller would be an improvement, I don't see goaltending as a huge hole like some people seem to.

Instead, I see him as somebody that makes sense to mentor Allen for a couple of years since I don't see either Halak or Elliott returning. Getting him this year instead of the offseason just happens to have extra benefit of improving a position that I'm not overly concerned about. Brodeur doesn't make sense past this year, so I don't think he makes sense to trade for.
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Re: Screw Miller

Postby not_a_wings_fan » Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:54 pm

I have zero interest in brodeur.

The guy is pretty much done.
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Re: Screw Miller

Postby Frusciante » Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:50 am

First of all, if we end up having Halak/Elliott when the playoffs begin, I'd go with Elliott. Sure, Halak has got more upside. That is, when he's hot, he can make unreal saves and single handedly win games for the Blues. But he could just as well throw away a great game where the team is winning, by making idiotic mistakes. Because let's face it, even if the Blues are dominating and scoring, one or two bad mistakes can cost us the game. When you're up against all these good teams in the west, you just know that every game will be tight. We won't see our team cruise through a few games winning by 3-4 goal differences. Thus, the goalie-situation will be absolutely vital for our success. Jaro is just too inconsistent to ever make me feel he'll be reliable through a deep playoff run. Too many momentum-killing mistakes that brings the team down and give energy to the opponents. With that said, Halak can just as well take us to the finals if he hits his stride in the playoffs. But to me there are just too many ifs and buts when it comes to this guy.

So, if we could trade for Miller, I'd feel much more comfortable. I just don't see any of our current goaltenders bringing us the cup. Halak and maybe a second round pick (I wouldn't trade away anyone on our roster other than Halak) for Miller would be a deal that I'd be willing to make. We just need more stability between the pipes. I don't care if he ends up being just a rental. This is our year.
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Re: Screw Miller

Postby dmiles2186 » Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:14 am

Why trade for Brodeur? I don't see that as an upgrade at all.

I'm starting to warm to the idea of Miller, but I still don't want to give up too much off of our roster. This team's strength is it's depth. No need to mess with that or else it's the Garth Butcher trade all over again.
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Re: Screw Miller

Postby cardsfan04 » Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:25 am

dmiles2186 wrote:Why trade for Brodeur? I don't see that as an upgrade at all.

I'm starting to warm to the idea of Miller, but I still don't want to give up too much off of our roster. This team's strength is it's depth. No need to mess with that or else it's the Garth Butcher trade all over again.


Agreed Halak plus Berglund should be reasonable. Maybe Rattie or Stewart instead. If they want more they need to send more.
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Re: Screw Miller

Postby ecbm » Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:19 pm

Fascinating discussion-oaklandblue hits on the key to any evaluation: the Blues are 2nd in shots allowed/game, 3rd in total goals against, 4th in GA/game and...18th in SV%. That's on nobody but the goalies. Taken together those numbers show that our D-men play well and the goalies underachieve (what my eyes see). For the record, I've always played goalie and generally don't care for them being blamed for teams' problems. But this really is the only area of weakness here. Funny that people somehow can twist this to find a problem with our offense (though admitting that we're near/at the top in G/game) or our defense (though admitting we have so much depth that very good prospects have no path into the squad) while overlooking the glaring statistical outlier that is team SV%. As for "letting it ride" with Halak/Eliott-well I can't agree with that; I've watched the Blues for 28 years and aside from the goaltending, this is the best team I've ever seen us put on the ice. (Goaltending has been frustrating; seems the Blues have only had 3 really good goalies in my lifetime: Liut, Joseph and Fuhr...) I don't want to be wondering "what if" for another 20 years if we get run out by the Kings/Ducks/Sharks in a series where Eliott posts a (acceptable to some but not good enough in the playoffs) .904 SV%.

That said, there's no way we get Miller for our garbage alone. Halak would go, as would possibly a Berglund (who by the way, no longer plays center unless someone is injured-Sobotka took his job and that lowers Berg's appeal even further) or Stewart (not exactly because they're wanted but because we'd need cap space to take on Miller unless Buffalo eats part of his contract, which they may offer to do in exchange for better prospects/picks) but they're gonna want at least one pick and/or prospect. That will all depend on the demand. I can see Washington getting involved or Minnesota but what would they offer? The Islanders-not a chance. He wouldn't resign for them, there's no point in them renting him and the fanbase would go apoplectic over the Vanek trade-mark II. I'd offer Halak, Stewart (who is still seen as having upside around the league) and one of our d prospects. Maybe dangle a conditional second-rounder if we win the cup or make the finals. One thing I'm confident in is that Armstrong won't get ripped off.

Again, very good discussion here though. Nice to discuss this stuff with folks who have something between their ears!
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Re: Screw Miller

Postby dmiles2186 » Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:57 pm

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