Possible 2nd Toronto team?

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Possible 2nd Toronto team?

Postby glen a richter » Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:13 pm

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/news;_ylt=A ... &type=lgns

I have to say this idea is completely assholish. How about proposing a team in Winnipeg before slapping another team in Toronto?

And if this were to happen, it sure as hell should be a relocation and not yet another expansion team. That would be a disaster. No way the Leafs management lets this happen though, is there?
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Re: Possible 2nd Toronto team?

Postby F Keenan » Sat Jun 06, 2009 8:59 am

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Re: Possible 2nd Toronto team?

Postby WaukeeBlues » Sun Jun 07, 2009 6:23 pm

glen a richter wrote:http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/news;_ylt=AqILH77CF8ucZJ8aG6bdyVp7vLYF?slug=ap-toronto-expansion&prov=ap&type=lgns

I have to say this idea is completely assholish. How about proposing a team in Winnipeg before slapping another team in Toronto?

And if this were to happen, it sure as hell should be a relocation and not yet another expansion team. That would be a disaster. No way the Leafs management lets this happen though, is there?


A rational person would agree with you- yea.

Unfortunately, the NHL has not been a beacon of reasoning for several decisions.

IMO- Winnipeg comes first- Quebec is asked next and if they can't support an NHL team or its not feasible, stay in the north, even in Canada. No more of this southern tropics/desert hockey crap please. What's next, the New Orleans Levees? Too soon? :lol:
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Re: Possible 2nd Toronto team?

Postby philco_3 » Sun Jun 07, 2009 7:41 pm

Would they really want to bring another team into the league? We already have teams that need to be moved, ie. Phoenix, Tampa, Florida and the Islanders. I honestly don't see why any city needs two teams.

Here is some more info

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=280969

Toronto Legacy? WTF couldn't they come up with a better name?
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Re: Possible 2nd Toronto team?

Postby WaukeeBlues » Sun Jun 07, 2009 9:33 pm

philco_3 wrote:Would they really want to bring another team into the league? We already have teams that need to be moved, ie. Phoenix, Tampa, Florida and the Islanders. I honestly don't see why any city needs two teams.

Here is some more info

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=280969

Toronto Legacy? WTF couldn't they come up with a better name?


I think Manny would fit in well there...
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Re: Possible 2nd Toronto team?

Postby philco_3 » Sun Jun 07, 2009 10:15 pm

WaukeeBlues wrote:
philco_3 wrote:Would they really want to bring another team into the league? We already have teams that need to be moved, ie. Phoenix, Tampa, Florida and the Islanders. I honestly don't see why any city needs two teams.

Here is some more info

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=280969

Toronto Legacy? WTF couldn't they come up with a better name?


I think Manny would fit in well there...


Too soon? :lol:
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Re: Possible 2nd Toronto team?

Postby glen a richter » Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:23 pm

WaukeeBlues wrote:
philco_3 wrote:Would they really want to bring another team into the league? We already have teams that need to be moved, ie. Phoenix, Tampa, Florida and the Islanders. I honestly don't see why any city needs two teams.

Here is some more info

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=280969

Toronto Legacy? WTF couldn't they come up with a better name?


I think Manny would fit in well there...


They'd have to start all their games a couple hours earlier. Manny can't stay up that late.
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Re: Possible 2nd Toronto team?

Postby strocklen083 » Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:37 pm

This entire idea has retarded written all over it from top to bottom.

I don't disagree with the opinion that the market is there support a team. Whether that's an cash cow of an expansion team or relocating one of the obviously struggling teams *cough* Tampa, Miami, Atlanta *cough* But the longer the NHL (and the Leafs) let this market go untapped, the longer this pissing match for this hypothetical franchise will continue and the odds of more retarded ideas like this will pop up
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Re: Possible 2nd Toronto team?

Postby glen a richter » Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:58 pm

When they say expansion team, I don't know whether they're referring to a brand new team or a relocated team, because I seem to recall the Avalanche were considered an "expansion" team even though they obviously weren't. When I think of expansion, I think of a team that makes the current number of teams increase. I'm sure we all think that because it's the only logical way to describe a team which expands the scope of the league.

There certainly needs to be a lot of relocation, and expanding any further should be the last thing on Bettman's mind. I think all the 4 major sports are extended beyond what should be a reasonable number of teams. All it does is water down talent. Expanding any more would be completely stupid. In particular, expanding to a city that already has a team with solid roots (Toronto), or expanding to a city that's already failed as an NHL city (Atlanta) shows a serious lack of judgment.

I'm willing to give KC a pass if they want to take the Islanders because it seems like they've made ample preparations to not end up like the Scouts. I can understand the reasons behind fighting a move to Hamilton because it'll suck some life out of the Buffalo market. Not that I know a lot about the size of various Canadian markets, so maybe some of our Canadian friends can help out here. How about Halifax instead (aside from the two obvious markets: Quebec and Winnipeg)?

To be fair, I also don't know how big Toronto is, but I'd assume that a 2nd team in Toronto would be close enough to either suck fan base away from the Leafs, or more likely not be able to build enough of a fan base because of the Leafs. Ask the Islanders and the Devils how much they'd like to not have to compete with the Rangers in the same geographic market. The same thing would happen with the Toronto Legacy.
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Re: Possible 2nd Toronto team?

Postby philco_3 » Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:31 pm

The reasons why the want a second team in Toronto is because it's so hard to get tickets up there and they also believe that if a second team in the city would challenge the Leafs and make them [the Leafs] be a better team (I guess like the Rangers/Islanders/Devils?). That were the only reasons why I heard why they would want another one in Toronto.

If some how the NHL allows a team in Hamilton it would take away fans from Buffalo and Toronto because they are so close together. I would rather see KC, Las Vegas, Winnipeg, Quebec or Hartford get a franchise that is weak and can't draw attendance. Teams in the south can't seem to support their teams so why keep them there?
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Re: Possible 2nd Toronto team?

Postby glen a richter » Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:43 pm

I don't think Vegas should have a team for the same reason I don't think Phoenix should have a team. Maybe a baseball team, but not a hockey team.
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Re: Possible 2nd Toronto team?

Postby strocklen083 » Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:45 pm

glen a richter wrote:When they say expansion team, I don't know whether they're referring to a brand new team or a relocated team, because I seem to recall the Avalanche were considered an "expansion" team even though they obviously weren't. When I think of expansion, I think of a team that makes the current number of teams increase. I'm sure we all think that because it's the only logical way to describe a team which expands the scope of the league.

There certainly needs to be a lot of relocation, and expanding any further should be the last thing on Bettman's mind. I think all the 4 major sports are extended beyond what should be a reasonable number of teams. All it does is water down talent. Expanding any more would be completely stupid. In particular, expanding to a city that already has a team with solid roots (Toronto), or expanding to a city that's already failed as an NHL city (Atlanta) shows a serious lack of judgment.

I'm willing to give KC a pass if they want to take the Islanders because it seems like they've made ample preparations to not end up like the Scouts. I can understand the reasons behind fighting a move to Hamilton because it'll suck some life out of the Buffalo market. Not that I know a lot about the size of various Canadian markets, so maybe some of our Canadian friends can help out here. How about Halifax instead (aside from the two obvious markets: Quebec and Winnipeg)?

To be fair, I also don't know how big Toronto is, but I'd assume that a 2nd team in Toronto would be close enough to either suck fan base away from the Leafs, or more likely not be able to build enough of a fan base because of the Leafs. Ask the Islanders and the Devils how much they'd like to not have to compete with the Rangers in the same geographic market. The same thing would happen with the Toronto Legacy.


1. I'm pretty sure the Avalanche were never considered an expansion team. As a matter of fact, I'd be willing to put money on that. Expansion franchises are those that are created from the ground up and involved expansion drafts. When the 'Lanche moved to Colorado there was no expansion draft, they just packed up their entire organization from top to bottom and moved to Denver. Their roster stayed intact and were not offered players on other teams.

2. The reasoning behind NHL/Bettman wanting to place and expansion team in Hamilton versus moving a team there is the expansion fee to be paid by the new owners to participate in the NHL. I've seen speculation that the league would ask $300-$400 million dollars for this phantom expansion team. The money would of course we redistributed among the other teams and would help out with economic downturn throughout the entire league. If a team relocated to Hamilton there's no fee and therefore no financial benefit to the other teams in the league.

3. That being said, the Hamilton market is no doubt big enough to support a franchise. Especially with the long list to even get single game tickets in Toronto. The only question is whether those long time Leafs fans would be willing to switch their allegiance based on ticket availability. Then there's also the question of the NHL canabilizing itself putting 3 teams so close to each other. Buffalo just recovered from a near devestating financial situation. Does the league really want to put strain on a franchise that almost collapsed in the recent future?

I'm a staunch advocate of relocation over expansion. It needs to happen and there are markets ready to support teams. Hamilton is surely a market that CAN support a team. However I feel there are greater opportunites in smaller, yet untapped markets in Canada that deserve teams before a 3rd team moves in to such a small geographic space.
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Re: Possible 2nd Toronto team?

Postby glen a richter » Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:53 pm

I'm just saying I've heard some people erroneously refer to them as an expansion team. I know they weren't.
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Re: Possible 2nd Toronto team?

Postby glen a richter » Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:59 pm

Re: Relocation, some nitwit on the Avalanche forum, about a year ago, proposed relocating the Thrashers to Bismarck. What has a higher population: STC during a playoff game or Bismarck, North Dakota?
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Re: Possible 2nd Toronto team?

Postby philco_3 » Mon Jun 08, 2009 4:30 pm

From what I've heard the NHL/Bettman wants nothing to do with a NHL team being located in Hamilton. That is why they trying to stop that guy from buying them from bankruptcy and moving them.

glen a richter wrote:I don't think Vegas should have a team for the same reason I don't think Phoenix should have a team. Maybe a baseball team, but not a hockey team.


Agreed, but I've heard Bettman express interest in Las Vegas, because there currently is no major professional team there. No ice in the desert.
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Re: Possible 2nd Toronto team?

Postby gaijin » Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:06 pm

philco_3 wrote:From what I've heard the NHL/Bettman wants nothing to do with a NHL team being located in Hamilton. That is why they trying to stop that guy from buying them from bankruptcy and moving them.

glen a richter wrote:I don't think Vegas should have a team for the same reason I don't think Phoenix should have a team. Maybe a baseball team, but not a hockey team.


Agreed, but I've heard Bettman express interest in Las Vegas, because there currently is no major professional team there. No ice in the desert.


No, but there's money. And where there's money, there's anything you want. I still think the NHL needs to jump on this market before any of the other pro leagues.
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Re: Possible 2nd Toronto team?

Postby strocklen083 » Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:04 pm

philco_3 wrote:From what I've heard the NHL/Bettman wants nothing to do with a NHL team being located in Hamilton. That is why they trying to stop that guy from buying them from bankruptcy and moving them.

Don't be fooled by the midget. The NHL wants everything and anything to do with a team in Hamilton! If someone's willing to throw $400 million dollars at the league to put in team in a guaranteed market, then they'd be foolish to let the Coyotes to move there for FREE! They can put this front up of "we want the Coyotes to succeed in Phoenix" all the want. But what they're really saying is "Stay away, someone else want to PAY us!".

gaijin wrote:I still think the NHL needs to jump on this market before any of the other pro leagues.

What other leagues would succeed in this market? NBA? MLB? MLS? Those leagues barely sustain a presence in Toronto as it is! Don't even suggest the NFL because we sure as shit know we know they won't go international and they def won't put a team so close to Buffalo.
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Re: Possible 2nd Toronto team?

Postby philco_3 » Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:08 pm

Don't see how Bettman even still has a job.
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Re: Possible 2nd Toronto team?

Postby WaukeeBlues » Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:40 pm

gaijin wrote:I still think the NHL needs to jump on this market before any of the other pro leagues.

What other leagues would succeed in this market? NBA? MLB? MLS? Those leagues barely sustain a presence in Toronto as it is! Don't even suggest the NFL because we sure as shit know we know they won't go international and they def won't put a team so close to Buffalo.


I think he was talking about Vegas
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Re: Possible 2nd Toronto team?

Postby strocklen083 » Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:44 am

WaukeeBlues wrote:I think he was talking about Vegas

Ha! That sounds like a SWELL idea. I know people think Vegas is this untapped market waiting to bring riches to what ever league goes there. But let's look at the "Big Four" and how a team in Vegas would work out...

NBA - Really? Do I need to tell you how horribly bad this will turn out. If players can't behave themselves in cities like Dallas and Indianapolis then how in the hell do you go a week without either a home or visiting player getting arrested or getting into a shootout in some seedy part of town?

NFL - Two words sum up the potential for this scenario: Pacman Jones. Sure he's not in the league, but there's at least 100 guys out there just like him just waiting to f up. Base them in Vegas or have them travel there once a year and the whole thing blows up in the league's face

MLB - Do you think ballplayers want to play in 120 degree heat in the middle of July? Sure they do it in Phoenix, but does the league really need TWO desert teams?

NHL - I know there's an AHL or ECHL team playing there. But can they really maintain an NHL quality sheet of ice throughout an entire season in this city? Not to mention the standard gambling problems that come with any professional sport moving there.

Bottom line is, it just doesn't seem like a good idea for any league to move here. But I'm sure some league will be foolish enough to some day!
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