GDT: Blues @ Pens -- 6pm Central -- KMOX & VS

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Re: GDT: Blues @ Pens -- 6pm Central -- KMOX & VS

Postby Sweetred95ta » Tue Oct 20, 2009 10:40 pm

I was unable to watch this game. I almost skipped my evening plans to watch it, though, but I'm sure glad I didn't. I was keeping tabs with my phone, and it sure seemed to get out of hand quickly. 20-3 shot differential after 1 period?? Come the (Frank) on. That's just ridiculous.

I just finished watching the highlights, and all it looked like was a goaltending clinic by Chris Mason. If I were him, I sure wouldn't be very happy with my team right now. They hung him out to dry a lot. The only good scoring chances they showed us having on the highlights were by Brad Winchester. WTF is up with that?? All this firepower, and he's the only one making the highlights (besides Mason). What a disappointing/embarrassing loss.
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Re: GDT: Blues @ Pens -- 6pm Central -- KMOX & VS

Postby section319 » Tue Oct 20, 2009 10:46 pm

Sweetred95ta wrote:I just finished watching the highlights, and all it looked like was a goaltending clinic by Chris Mason. If I were him, I sure wouldn't be very happy with my team right now. They hung him out to dry a lot.


Hopefully, he handles it better than Legace did.
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Re: GDT: Blues @ Pens -- 6pm Central -- KMOX & VS

Postby TSUCookieMonster » Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:37 am

ProngerBlues44 wrote:Also, does anyone think that Kariya is worthless? I know he had those two goals in the opener, but other than that the guy does not fit in this lineup. His passing is atrocious, he is out of position and doesn't help out the D. I will be so happy when his contract is up.


Yeah... 5 points in 6 games... +/- even. worthless. :roll:
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Re: GDT: Blues @ Pens -- 6pm Central -- KMOX & VS

Postby DaDitka » Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:53 am

BF44 wrote:And frankly, I can't believe you guys wanna fire the coach who got us into the playoffs last year...........


I've wanted him fired for two years and never waivered.

A bunch of kids that didn't know any better got on a role last year and a goalie got hot, that's what got us to the playoffs.

Even before last night's game Murray was telling the national press about how he loves his veterans....what did they have to do with making the playoffs last year?

Paulie was on the sidelines, Walt was a none factor in the second half, Brewer on the sideline, Jackman sucked, hell the best vet down the stretch last year (notice, I'm not mentioning McDonald as not to mess up my argument) was McKee and they sent him packing.

Murray has never.....never......never! done a single thing to invoke my confidence in him.

NOT ONLY THAT!!!!!! But if you are wanting to build a team through the organ-ize-ation, he's the wrong man for the job.

Just because he had to build the pyramids as a kid and suffered the great flood with Noah, he's bitter and takes it out on all kids.

Short of Backas….who has he made better? Did his hard line two years ago sculpt Perron into an all star? Did he find a way to get Berglund going in the second half last year? Did he help Oshie carry his momentm form a solid rookie campaign into this season. Has he guided the former ‘ROY’ defensemen to multiple all star seasons? Has he found a way to carry Walt’s early season momentum past November in any of his seasons?

I said it last year…..I think making the playoffs would set this franchise back years.

They got a false since of being too ‘close’ and it bought Murray more time.

I clearly understand anyone opposing view, I simply want to point out my unwavering stance and to illustrate that I am not giving up on Murray because I was NEVER behind him.
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Re: GDT: Blues @ Pens -- 6pm Central -- KMOX & VS

Postby ProngerBlues44 » Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:02 am

TSUCookieMonster wrote:
ProngerBlues44 wrote:Also, does anyone think that Kariya is worthless? I know he had those two goals in the opener, but other than that the guy does not fit in this lineup. His passing is atrocious, he is out of position and doesn't help out the D. I will be so happy when his contract is up.


Yeah... 5 points in 6 games... +/- even. worthless. :roll:


We can talk about stats all night long- but the actual game. Playing with two other guys on his line. Hustle. Positioning. You know, the stuff that wins you games instead of goals that are scored when it is already 4-0.
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Re: GDT: Blues @ Pens -- 6pm Central -- KMOX & VS

Postby section319 » Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:48 am

ProngerBlues44 wrote:
TSUCookieMonster wrote:
ProngerBlues44 wrote:Also, does anyone think that Kariya is worthless? I know he had those two goals in the opener, but other than that the guy does not fit in this lineup. His passing is atrocious, he is out of position and doesn't help out the D. I will be so happy when his contract is up.


Yeah... 5 points in 6 games... +/- even. worthless. :roll:


We can talk about stats all night long- but the actual game. Playing with two other guys on his line. Hustle. Positioning. You know, the stuff that wins you games instead of goals that are scored when it is already 4-0.



But, he has never done that, just like he doesn't really back check for shit either, but as longer as he is the highest scoring player on our team at seasons end, I honestly don't care.
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Re: GDT: Blues @ Pens -- 6pm Central -- KMOX & VS

Postby DaDitka » Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:12 pm

section319 wrote:
ProngerBlues44 wrote:
TSUCookieMonster wrote:
ProngerBlues44 wrote:Also, does anyone think that Kariya is worthless? I know he had those two goals in the opener, but other than that the guy does not fit in this lineup. His passing is atrocious, he is out of position and doesn't help out the D. I will be so happy when his contract is up.


Yeah... 5 points in 6 games... +/- even. worthless. :roll:


We can talk about stats all night long- but the actual game. Playing with two other guys on his line. Hustle. Positioning. You know, the stuff that wins you games instead of goals that are scored when it is already 4-0.



But, he has never done that, just like he doesn't really back check for shit either, but as longer as he is the highest scoring player on our team at seasons end, I honestly don't care.


Exactly.

Everyone has their role and/or set of attributes they bring to the table.

To his credit, Paulie as publicly stated that he has to work to try and refine his game to an extent to properly fit with the rest of his team.
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Re: GDT: Blues @ Pens -- 6pm Central -- KMOX & VS

Postby BF44 » Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:50 pm

Did his hard line two years ago sculpt Perron into an all star?
Talent usually needs to be refined -- guys like Crosby and Ovechkin are BY FAR the exception to the rule. Most guys can't be rushed. Go back in the last few years drafts and see how many guys were rushed into the NHL as saviors of their franchise, only to be out of hockey in 4 years. (Daigle comes to mind.)

Not to mention, when Keenan gave that one young defenceman who wore #44 such a hard time, he turned out to be a pretty damn good player once he got focused. Sometimes tough love is what it takes.
Did he find a way to get Berglund going in the second half last year?
Perhaps that was part of why he was scratched against LA? He looked pretty damn good the following game...
Did he help Oshie carry his momentm form a solid rookie campaign into this season
Jesus Christ.... it's been SEVEN GAMES!!!!
Has he guided the former ‘ROY’ defensemen to multiple all star seasons?
First, Defensive defensemen never make the All-star game. Second, I think a lot of Blues fans got pretty spoiled having MacInnis and Pronger on the blueline at one time. D-men like that don't come around too often... let alone having two on one team for a long time....
Has he found a way to carry Walt’s early season momentum past November in any of his seasons?
Walt is approaching AARP age.... if you have to depend on him to carry you all season, the problem is with JD/Pleau... not Andy Murray.....

If the Blues fired Andy Murray today, he'd be unemployed for about 38 nanoseconds. He was a finalist for Coach of the Year, and the folks who voted on that have more combined knowledge in their heads than every member of this board.. times ten.
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Re: GDT: Blues @ Pens -- 6pm Central -- KMOX & VS

Postby WaukeeBlues » Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:07 pm

Unfortunately saw this one beginning to end.

1) Mason. Honestly, I don't think a single one of those goals were his fault. I mean cmon, when Matt Cooke is roofing pucks off a tip and Darryl Sydor decides to center the puck to Evgeni Malkin (that shot went off a guy's pad), blaming the goalie is the last thing to do. Given the circumstances and the crap playing around him, he did about as best as he could do. Had some good saves too.

2) Everyone else. The first period was brutal. Nearly without exception, every single Blue out there was running around frantically, not in position, swatting at pucks, pushing them up the boards, following the puck around like middle schoolers, especially on the PK. There were moments in the 2nd and 3rd where they would turn it on, look good for about 2 shifts and then it would sink right back down again. Stupid ass penalties don't help either.

All in all, yesterday was not an accurate reflection I don't think. Everyone has to keep in mind they WERE playing the Stanley Cup champs, and they played like it. Bad game, some played worse than others, and there were flashes of "good" play but you'll never beat the Penguins when they're moving the puck extremely well and only having moments where you are just hanging in there at best. Oh well.

edit: I thought Kariya did okay- didn't have a BAD game. he was no more noticeably bad than anyone else on the ice at any rate.
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Re: GDT: Blues @ Pens -- 6pm Central -- KMOX & VS

Postby DaDitka » Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:49 am

BF44 wrote:
If the Blues fired Andy Murray today, he'd be unemployed for about 38 nanoseconds. He was a finalist for Coach of the Year, and the folks who voted on that have more combined knowledge in their heads than every member of this board.. times ten.



He was a finalist because of the big turnaround, once these knowledgeable heads took a close look, the award went somewhere else.

I do not believe he would be hired immediately, sure this league retreads coaches, but he’s not exactly a very highly thought of one. He is regarded as a guy that can keep the ship afloat with a veteran bunch.
He’s not taking a team over the top. He’s not going to sell tickets. He’s not regarded as a ‘championship level’ coach.

Again, I’ll reiterate…..I’m not trying to fire Murray after 7 games…..I’m still trying to fire Murray 7 games latter.

Let’s throw it out there this way….What has Murray done well?

Not record, because if you want to talk record we have to look at the whole thing which is mediocre. He’s 16 games over 500 in his three seasons with the Blues, he’s an average of about 4.5 games over 500 a year for his career, in his 9 seasons, in his 9 seasons as head coach in the NHL he’s won one playoff series. Last year marked the first time in six seasons he coached a team to 90 points or more.

Those that are not giving up on him yet are clearly have a valid argument with last year’s second half. I merely believe that was the exception instead on the rule looking at his track record.
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Re: GDT: Blues @ Pens -- 6pm Central -- KMOX & VS

Postby TSUCookieMonster » Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:36 am

DaDitka wrote:Let’s throw it out there this way….What has Murray done well?


Replaced Coach Kitchen. Nowhere to go but up from him.
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Re: GDT: Blues @ Pens -- 6pm Central -- KMOX & VS

Postby DaDitka » Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:06 am

TSUCookieMonster wrote:
DaDitka wrote:Let’s throw it out there this way….What has Murray done well?


Replaced Coach Kitchen. Nowhere to go but up from him.


Touché
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Re: GDT: Blues @ Pens -- 6pm Central -- KMOX & VS

Postby SIU LAW » Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:01 pm

BF44 wrote:Jesus Christ.... it's been SEVEN GAMES!!!!


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Re: GDT: Blues @ Pens -- 6pm Central -- KMOX & VS

Postby BF44 » Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:41 pm

SIU LAW wrote:
BF44 wrote:Jesus Christ.... it's been SEVEN GAMES!!!!


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Re: GDT: Blues @ Pens -- 6pm Central -- KMOX & VS

Postby SIU LAW » Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:16 pm

BF44 wrote:My webcam rocks, eh?


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Re: GDT: Blues @ Pens -- 6pm Central -- KMOX & VS

Postby Oz-iz-God » Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:56 am

I'd sit on the "Perron's not an AS so Murray sucks" argument.

Perron has progressed phenominally as a hockey player. The dude was a late 1st rounder that played major NHL minutes as a MFing teenager only a year removed from being undrafted out of juniors. Last year he became a much more prolific scorer despite the fact that his sh% was cut in half (and everyone remembers how many posts Perron hit last year, that was a damn unlucky season for him).

At the same time he's become one of our harder players to knock off the puck. He plays with a more physical edge than the much larger Berglund. Did anyone ever see that coming from him as a rookie?

Maybe you have a point with Berglund, he absolutely stalled last season and we need to see Murray light a fire under him.

But you're talking out your ass as it relates to David Perron. Murray has done a phenominal job with him.

Also, I don't believe "disingenuous" is giving you enough credit when you say "apart from the 30 goal scoring, open ice hitting, late 2nd rounder that Murray turned into a franchise power forward, who has he made better?" Hey Ms. Lincoln, apart from that, how was the rest of the play?
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Re: GDT: Blues @ Pens -- 6pm Central -- KMOX & VS

Postby kodos » Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:23 am

I think he's talking about the fact the Perron has zero points in the first 7 games.

And yeah, it's only 7 games, but for a guy who is supposed to be a scorer, 7 games with no points is BAD.
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Re: GDT: Blues @ Pens -- 6pm Central -- KMOX & VS

Postby Oz-iz-God » Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:36 am

kodos wrote:I think he's talking about the fact the Perron has zero points in the first 7 games.

And yeah, it's only 7 games, but for a guy who is supposed to be a scorer, 7 games with no points is BAD.


So we believe Perron is now awful? That Perron is, in fact, no better than he was the moment he put on the Bluenote? Or do we simply believe he's in a mighty funk?

Yes, it's bad. It's fair to call it quite bad, in fact.

However, most 2nd line scorers (b/c that's all Perron is or likely to be, Murray not turning him into Crosby is hardly worthy of scorn) are going to have a string where they go a fair amount of time without scoring.

It looks worse because it happened at the start of the year. It becomes worse because Perron is now gripping his stick awfully hard out there. At the same time, it's hardly an indictment on Murray's ability to develop Perron as a player.

Could you question his ability to effectively coax him out of a slump? Sure you could, but that's not the argument Ditka made. He said that Murray hasn't helped make Perron a far stronger play. To argue that Murray hasn't been instrumental in developing Perron into a very good hockey player is simply ignoring how far David has progressed, IMO.

He is what we know him to be, slump or no. Murray has played a huge role in that. Is Murray above reproach? Absolutely not, I believe him to be a good, but not elite, coach. He has a blind spot for veterans and will occasionally overvalue grit at the expense of skill. At the same time, criticize him for the things he actually does poorly, not perceived slights. Murray did a phenominal job developing Perron and Backes, he did a good job with Oshie and Polak as well. Despite the fact that I find his methods maddening, I believe he's actually done quite well in developing the younger players. Berglund has been a little bit of a disappointment, but he also scored 20 goals as a rookie, so it's not like Murray completely screwed him up. I think the kid just got tired and there was little AM could do.
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Re: GDT: Blues @ Pens -- 6pm Central -- KMOX & VS

Postby DaDitka » Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:36 pm

Oz-iz-God wrote:
kodos wrote:I think he's talking about the fact the Perron has zero points in the first 7 games.

And yeah, it's only 7 games, but for a guy who is supposed to be a scorer, 7 games with no points is BAD.


So we believe Perron is now awful? That Perron is, in fact, no better than he was the moment he put on the Bluenote? Or do we simply believe he's in a mighty funk?



IMO the discussion isn't how good or bad Perron is now, last year, or next month, it's Is Andy Murray's coaching helping develop him I was discussing the lack of positive impact on this team by Andy Murray at all - ever. Not these seven games. Not our slow start. The complete ineptitude of Andy Murray as Blues coach to get the most out of his players and to help them become better.


His team made the playoffs last year, and if that’s good enough for you, fine.

I wanted him gone at the beginning of last year, I wanted him fired in the middle of the season last year, and nothing HE…..HE……has done since has changed my mind.

It’s just my opinion, and I’m not trying to force it upon anyone else.

I was one of the last ones off the Keenan Bus, so it’s not like I always hate coaches and it’s not like I’m always right. I just think Murray does more harm than good for the organization period.
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Re: GDT: Blues @ Pens -- 6pm Central -- KMOX & VS

Postby Oz-iz-God » Fri Oct 23, 2009 1:31 pm

DaDitka wrote:
Oz-iz-God wrote:
kodos wrote:I think he's talking about the fact the Perron has zero points in the first 7 games.

And yeah, it's only 7 games, but for a guy who is supposed to be a scorer, 7 games with no points is BAD.


So we believe Perron is now awful? That Perron is, in fact, no better than he was the moment he put on the Bluenote? Or do we simply believe he's in a mighty funk?



IMO the discussion isn't how good or bad Perron is now, last year, or next month, it's Is Andy Murray's coaching helping develop him I was discussing the lack of positive impact on this team by Andy Murray at all - ever.


I'm well aware that this is your argument.

Kodos is the one that suggested otherwise.

I simply believe it is incredibly misguided. Perron is a significantly tougher, more responsible player than the one that was supposed to be here on a 9 game tryout. He goes hard into corners, will hit a guy in the open and plays a generally sound defensive game. He was, IMO, our best player in the playoffs last season.

That's all on Murray. He was nothing like that when he arrived. He was a frenetic floater that cheated out of the zone for scoring chances and didn't have much of an edge to him. I bristled at his treatment (such as his time on the 3rd/4th lines) but it's clearly made him a tougher, more versatile and more valuable player.

I just don't understand at all how you can make that argument in regards to David Perron.
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