Still pretenders

[Kerfuffle]

I'm not Armstrong but I believe getting a new coach and getting rid of Backes and Oshie would be enough. I'm surprised the Blues are not all over Babcock and recruiting him to come to St. Louis.

I dump Backes because he's the captain and if he can't motivate the troops 3 years in a row then it's time for a change. I choose Oshie because no one needs a shootout specialist in the playoffs. While Oshie is great for getting the Blues another 5-6 points single handedly in the regular season, he's a one dimensional player and the Blues are ready to take the next step. I remember in high school we had a guy on our basketball team that could do all these tricks with the ball, spin on any finger of his right hand, around the back passes, impressive dribbling, but when it came to game time he could never put the ball in the basket. Not to be mean but Oshie reminds me of him.

[WaukeeBlues]

Since it's been a week and change, I've cooled off on my whole 'trade everyone but Shatty, STL, and Allen.' But I'm still okay with making some trades and I would start with #74. Solid player, a lot of effort, great in the shootout, marketable. But does he offer anything completely untouchable?

Nope.

... I agree with glen. We need to rid our team of some of the guys who rely on the heavy checking (but slower skating) game. We need speed. I'm not asking for an entire team of The Flash, but I want a few at our disposal. Is it that our lines are too redundant? They all play the same style? Wouldn't it be nice to have a line with straight lightning, then counter w/ the forechecking/scoring touch of the STL line, followed by the heavy hitting of a line similar to our SOB line now?

I don't know, just spitballing. All I will say is that this offseason better bring a little change. It doesn't have to be an entire overhaul, but some significant pieces re-tooled slightly. If we go into next season with a similar core and coaching philosophy, then I'll go ahead and starting planning for more heartache in April 2016.

That's actually a good point and never really looked at it that way. The STL line is really the only finesse line that we have and even then that's a stretch because Lehtera is one big dude.

The last small(ish), super quick player on this team was Kariya on the tail end of his career. Other than that we've been mostly employing big guys (albeit with talent) with an appetite for the physicality. Which isn't bad, you need those types of guys. But it can't be your entire roster.

++ on the analysis dmiles

[glen a richter]

Just finished reading Ponder's article about the Blues poor leadership, scrolled through the comments and found a gem of a comment about this supposed rumor (E5?) that the Blues were targeting Evgeni Malkin to play between Tarasenko and Barbashev?

The only question that needs to be asked is where did this commenter get his drugs?

Now if it happened, that would be one sick line. But there's a better chance of a unicorn farting a rainbow than Malkin ever being in the Blues plans or within the Blues financial boundaries. Do these people think before they type?

[ComradeT]

Just finished reading Ponder's article about the Blues poor leadership, scrolled through the comments and found a gem of a comment about this supposed rumor (E5?) that the Blues were targeting Evgeni Malkin to play between Tarasenko and Barbashev?

The only question that needs to be asked is where did this commenter get his drugs?

Now if it happened, that would be one sick line. But there's a better chance of a unicorn farting a rainbow than Malkin ever being in the Blues plans or within the Blues financial boundaries. Do these people think before they type?

Nice dream to have but even with the Penguins not having the best of times lately, I don't see Malkin going to the Blues or the Blues being able to afford him. Geno makes just south of $10 mil per year.

[dmiles2186]

Since it's been a week and change, I've cooled off on my whole 'trade everyone but Shatty, STL, and Allen.' But I'm still okay with making some trades and I would start with #74. Solid player, a lot of effort, great in the shootout, marketable. But does he offer anything completely untouchable?

Nope.

... I agree with glen. We need to rid our team of some of the guys who rely on the heavy checking (but slower skating) game. We need speed. I'm not asking for an entire team of The Flash, but I want a few at our disposal. Is it that our lines are too redundant? They all play the same style? Wouldn't it be nice to have a line with straight lightning, then counter w/ the forechecking/scoring touch of the STL line, followed by the heavy hitting of a line similar to our SOB line now?

I don't know, just spitballing. All I will say is that this offseason better bring a little change. It doesn't have to be an entire overhaul, but some significant pieces re-tooled slightly. If we go into next season with a similar core and coaching philosophy, then I'll go ahead and starting planning for more heartache in April 2016.

That's actually a good point and never really looked at it that way. The STL line is really the only finesse line that we have and even then that's a stretch because Lehtera is one big dude.

The last small(ish), super quick player on this team was Kariya on the tail end of his career. Other than that we've been mostly employing big guys (albeit with talent) with an appetite for the physicality. Which isn't bad, you need those types of guys. But it can't be your entire roster.

++ on the analysis dmiles

[glen a richter]

Just finished reading Ponder's article about the Blues poor leadership, scrolled through the comments and found a gem of a comment about this supposed rumor (E5?) that the Blues were targeting Evgeni Malkin to play between Tarasenko and Barbashev?

The only question that needs to be asked is where did this commenter get his drugs?

Now if it happened, that would be one sick line. But there's a better chance of a unicorn farting a rainbow than Malkin ever being in the Blues plans or within the Blues financial boundaries. Do these people think before they type?

Nice dream to have but even with the Penguins not having the best of times lately, I don't see Malkin going to the Blues or the Blues being able to afford him. Geno makes just south of $10 mil per year.

I don't recall exactly who they cited in their analysis but it involved the jettison of Backes and Oshie (probably in the trade to Pittsburgh), money elsewhere being saved by not retaining Jackman, trading Bouwmeester and cutting ties with Ott. I guess technically the trade makes it nearly a salary wash and the other departures opens up the money for Tarasenko, not to mention Barbashev is significantly cheaper than Oshie or Backes. I wouldn't go so far as to say such a situation couldn't happen--financially it's perfectly possible if the salaries going to Pittsburgh are equal to or higher than Malkin's 9.5 coming back. What I am saying is that it wouldn't happen.

[theohall]

Just finished reading Ponder's article about the Blues poor leadership, scrolled through the comments and found a gem of a comment about this supposed rumor (E5?) that the Blues were targeting Evgeni Malkin to play between Tarasenko and Barbashev?

The only question that needs to be asked is where did this commenter get his drugs?

Now if it happened, that would be one sick line. But there's a better chance of a unicorn farting a rainbow than Malkin ever being in the Blues plans or within the Blues financial boundaries. Do these people think before they type?

Nice dream to have but even with the Penguins not having the best of times lately, I don't see Malkin going to the Blues or the Blues being able to afford him. Geno makes just south of $10 mil per year.

I don't recall exactly who they cited in their analysis but it involved the jettison of Backes and Oshie (probably in the trade to Pittsburgh), money elsewhere being saved by not retaining Jackman, trading Bouwmeester and cutting ties with Ott. I guess technically the trade makes it nearly a salary wash and the other departures opens up the money for Tarasenko, not to mention Barbashev is significantly cheaper than Oshie or Backes. I wouldn't go so far as to say such a situation couldn't happen--financially it's perfectly possible if the salaries going to Pittsburgh are equal to or higher than Malkin's 9.5 coming back. What I am saying is that it wouldn't happen.

The reason it won't happen - yes, salary is dumped by sending out several to pay a couple. The problem when sending out many, the other replacements, in addition to the two who get paid, also have to get paid. It's not a zero sum game by sending out Backes, Oshie, Bouwmeester and Ott for Malkin essentially. So one salary replaces 4. But you still have to pay 3 more players. Would be fun to see, though.

[glen a richter]

Playing GM since the Malkin thing is out there, apparently not only in the comment section of the Ponder article but actually other articles backing that rumor up.

Scenario: Washington exits the playoffs without a Cup. Trotz, defense first coach that he is, wants to beef up things.

Backes + Oshie for Backstrom who will center Tarasenko and Schwartz. Stastny 2nd line center, Lehtera 3rd line center.

Trade Bouwmeester for prospects or picks or whatever, if you can get into the 1st round that's good but not likely. Sign UFA Mike Green.

Defense, after moving parts are moved: Pie, Shatty, Green, Gunnarsson, Bortuzzo, Lindbohm

Forwards: Tarasenko, Backstrom, Schwartz, Stastny, Jaskin, Berglund, Steen, Lehtera, Barbashev, Reaves, Porter, Ott

Goalies: Allen, Elliott (have to assume Ells asks for a trade, though)

Gone: Backes & Oshie (replaced with Backstrom and Barbashev), Jackman (replaced with Lindbohm), Butler (effectively replaced with Bortuzzo), Michalek (replaced with someone from Chicago... Edmundson finally?), Jokinen (wasn't getting ice time anyway, replaced with whoever you feel like), Goc (same as Jokinen), Bouwmeester (replaced with Green). Does this clear up enough money to sign Tarasenko and Allen, assuming the cap goes up say 4 mil? I think it more than does the trick, it's not a gigantic overhaul, but it does a lot to change the identity of the team.

[Oaklandblue]

I'd partially blow up the core and do whatever I could to get Schneider, Clutterbuck and Eric Staal, off the top of my head.

The ideology is whatever can't help us, needs to go. I would absolutely trade off Stastny in this, I absolutely do not see him being a solution to anything but how we spend a chunk of coin a year. He needs to be the kind of guy that operates like Frank does, but he's just...he's not the solution. I'm sorry, that's just how I feel. If we don't make the hard choices in trades and acquisitions and constantly play it rubber-wall safe, we do not deserve nor prepared to win jack when the time comes.

Malkin can rot in Pittsburg with his shiny ring after the performance I saw in the playoffs. Absolutely gutless.

[glen a richter]

In theory, I'd love to get Stastny's 7 mil off the books. But he's the guy who made it public what the culture was in the dressing room. He didn't bring that culture with him, he got sucked into it when he signed with the team. If he was in a more positive, optimistic environment where losing was losing and bouncing back from losing was demanded each time so wins meant something and we didn't have to sit around wondering which Blues team was going to show up, he may do better. His comments about the prevailing attitude during both periods of winning and periods of losing were important in beginning to address what's wrong with the rest of the team.

That said, if you can find a taker, do it. In my scenario, your top 4 centers are Backstrom, Stastny, Lehtera and Porter. Surely a cheaper, just as effective replacement can be found for Stastny in the same trade that rids us of that 7 million dollar burden.

[cprice12]

I'm not Armstrong but I believe getting a new coach and getting rid of Backes and Oshie would be enough. I'm surprised the Blues are not all over Babcock and recruiting him to come to St. Louis.

Who is to say they aren't?
You rarely hear about anything Armstrong is doing until it's already done.
He is very secretive and plays things close the vest...and quite often says one thing and does another...which is by design.

I dump Backes because he's the captain and if he can't motivate the troops 3 years in a row then it's time for a change. I choose Oshie because no one needs a shootout specialist in the playoffs. While Oshie is great for getting the Blues another 5-6 points single handedly in the regular season, he's a one dimensional player and the Blues are ready to take the next step. I remember in high school we had a guy on our basketball team that could do all these tricks with the ball, spin on any finger of his right hand, around the back passes, impressive dribbling, but when it came to game time he could never put the ball in the basket. Not to be mean but Oshie reminds me of him.

I take it you don't watch many Blues games, because that's just not true.

Oshie is anything but a one dimensional player. He is quite the opposite. He plays in all situations. He is a very good penalty killer, he plays on the PP, he plays a significant back checking role when matched up against the other team's top line, he is one of our better setup men...and scores 20-ish goals a season, puts up a good +/-...and not to mention being a shootout specialist and has that gear for extra effort that few have and sometimes results in highlight reel goals. He can play a run and gun style, or a grind it out style. He is an extremely versatile player.

I'm not sure why anyone would say he is one-dimensional. He is known for his shootout abilities because of the Olympics, but that shouldn't be all he is known for. When I hear national analysts and writers mention that all he does is shootouts, they simply don't know what they are talking about. It's lazy journalism.

Oshie's issue isn't with being one-dimensional, because he's not a one-dimensional player. His issue is producing on the scoreboard come playoff time...which he doesn't do near enough of. But that has been the case with too many players on this team.

It would suck to see him go, because he is a great talent and I like him...he is fun to watch. But if he can't get it done in the playoffs...then let's bring in someone else who can. I think we can also get a good return on Oshie as well. He and Backes could bring a lot back in a trade, so all the better. But we'll see what happens.

[ecbm]

The Blues have been caught out as a very slow team but you know guys-that's mainly a team thing, a system thing, not an individual thing. And really, ask yourselves: do you believe the individuals on this Blues squad are as slow as they seem in-game against an opponent like MIN? Do you believe Petro & Shatty are slow among defenders-as in, less foot speed than the average NHL defenseman? And being big doesn't make you slow either. I'm sure you're all aware the Ovechkin weighs in at 230lbs, and I'm also sure that you remember how surprisingly fast the 6'2"/228lb Chris Stewart is. I'm also sure you remember Bret Hedican (6'2"/210) holding his own in those fastest skater competitions on All Star weekends during the 90s. Look at it the other way: we didn't see so much more of Ryan Suter joining the rush effectively than Petro because the former is so very much faster. It's the system they play in, simple as.

The most important personnel decision for the Blues this off season is who is head coach. If Hitch is back, this team will not succeed-mark my words, they will fail in the exact same way.

[Kerfuffle]

You rarely hear about anything Armstrong is doing until it's already done. He is very secretive and plays things close the vest...and quite often says one thing and does another...which is by design.

I don't believe they are recruiting Babcock at this time. Yes it's possible but unlikely. If they were doing that they would have already let Hitch go rather than giving him time to decide what he wants to do. And even if the Hitch decision is just for show for the fans I think it would have leaked out by now if the team was working the backdoor to get Babcock in here.

I take it you don't watch many Blues games, because that's just not true. Oshie is anything but a one dimensional player. He is quite the opposite. He plays in all situations. He is a very good penalty killer, he plays on the PP, he plays a significant back checking role when matched up against the other team's top line, he is one of our better setup men...and scores 20-ish goals a season, puts up a good +/-...and not to mention being a shootout specialist and has that gear for extra effort that few have and sometimes results in highlight reel goals. He can play a run and gun style, or a grind it out style. He is an extremely versatile player.

I'm not sure why anyone would say he is one-dimensional. He is known for his shootout abilities because of the Olympics, but that shouldn't be all he is known for. When I hear national analysts and writers mention that all he does is shootouts, they simply don't know what they are talking about. It's lazy journalism.

Oshie's issue isn't with being one-dimensional, because he's not a one-dimensional player. His issue is producing on the scoreboard come playoff time...which he doesn't do near enough of. But that has been the case with too many players on this team.

It would suck to see him go, because he is a great talent and I like him...he is fun to watch. But if he can't get it done in the playoffs...then let's bring in someone else who can. I think we can also get a good return on Oshie as well. He and Backes could bring a lot back in a trade, so all the better. But we'll see what happens.

I see your point but I don't agree - he's built a solid reputation as a shootout specialist but if you look at his playoff stats they are really bad. Hence, whether fair or not he continues to get labeled as one dimensional. Until he can prove himself in the playoffs I'm afraid that label will stick.

[Kerfuffle]

The Blues have been caught out as a very slow team but you know guys-that's mainly a team thing, a system thing, not an individual thing. And really, ask yourselves: do you believe the individuals on this Blues squad are as slow as they seem in-game against an opponent like MIN?

Gotta say that I never saw the Blues as a slow team this year - even in our meetings I thought you guys were pretty darn fast. I don't believe lack of speed is the issue here but rather confidence. I think it was the new guy that said the team doesn't know how to handle a loss - that heads are down and it's like a funeral in the locker room. That's the smoking gun right there. How do you fix it? I don't know but I'd start with replacing Hitch, Backes, and Oshie. With Hitch and Backes you would have new leadership in the locker room. Getting a new captain that's won a cup would definitely help if one's available out there.

[cprice12]

You rarely hear about anything Armstrong is doing until it's already done. He is very secretive and plays things close the vest...and quite often says one thing and does another...which is by design.

I don't believe they are recruiting Babcock at this time. Yes it's possible but unlikely. If they were doing that they would have already let Hitch go rather than giving him time to decide what he wants to do. And even if the Hitch decision is just for show for the fans I think it would have leaked out by now if the team was working the backdoor to get Babcock in here.

Yes, you would think so, but again...for whatever reason, a lot of the moves that Armstrong has made have seemingly come out of the blue with little foreshadowing. The Ryan Miller deal for example. That was a big trade and you would have thought that something would have leaked...but it seemingly came out of the blue when negotiations had been going on for a long time.
That is usually how Armstrong operates...so it wouldn't surprise me at all if they were to announce Hitchcock will not return and then a week later the announce Babcock has the job.
I'm not predicting that will happen...I'm just saying it wouldn't surprise me if it went down that way.

I take it you don't watch many Blues games, because that's just not true. Oshie is anything but a one dimensional player. He is quite the opposite. He plays in all situations. He is a very good penalty killer, he plays on the PP, he plays a significant back checking role when matched up against the other team's top line, he is one of our better setup men...and scores 20-ish goals a season, puts up a good +/-...and not to mention being a shootout specialist and has that gear for extra effort that few have and sometimes results in highlight reel goals. He can play a run and gun style, or a grind it out style. He is an extremely versatile player.

I'm not sure why anyone would say he is one-dimensional. He is known for his shootout abilities because of the Olympics, but that shouldn't be all he is known for. When I hear national analysts and writers mention that all he does is shootouts, they simply don't know what they are talking about. It's lazy journalism.

Oshie's issue isn't with being one-dimensional, because he's not a one-dimensional player. His issue is producing on the scoreboard come playoff time...which he doesn't do near enough of. But that has been the case with too many players on this team.

It would suck to see him go, because he is a great talent and I like him...he is fun to watch. But if he can't get it done in the playoffs...then let's bring in someone else who can. I think we can also get a good return on Oshie as well. He and Backes could bring a lot back in a trade, so all the better. But we'll see what happens.

I see your point but I don't agree - he's built a solid reputation as a shootout specialist but if you look at his playoff stats they are really bad. Hence, whether fair or not he continues to get labeled as one dimensional. Until he can prove himself in the playoffs I'm afraid that label will stick.

We agree that his playoff stats are bad. That's in black and white.
But just because his offensive playoff numbers aren't good, that doesn't make him one dimensional. People can say it all they want...doesn't make it true. Usually folks that say it don't watch the Blues play often and don't understand or appreciate all of the things he does well besides shootouts.

The sexy offensive numbers get the headlines...and that's all outsiders see for Oshie. Far too many people think that if a forward isn't scoring, then he sucks...when we all know that isn't always the case. The reason why he is the popular choice to be traded is because this team's problem is timely scoring in the playoffs (which needs to be addressed in some way and he is one of the guys whose offensive playoff production is poor), AND, the return on him should be pretty good...at least you would think so.

But I really can't see any trades being made until a coach is officially in place...whether it be Hitchcock, Babcock, Bylsma, or whoever.

I think it's been long enough. I'd like a decision to be announced here soon so we can move forward. You would think that IF Hitchcock returns that would mean more player moves. If a new coach is brought in, you would think maybe less moves...I dunno. At this point, I just want some news on anything.

[cprice12]

The Blues have been caught out as a very slow team but you know guys-that's mainly a team thing, a system thing, not an individual thing. And really, ask yourselves: do you believe the individuals on this Blues squad are as slow as they seem in-game against an opponent like MIN?

Gotta say that I never saw the Blues as a slow team this year - even in our meetings I thought you guys were pretty darn fast. I don't believe lack of speed is the issue here but rather confidence. I think it was the new guy that said the team doesn't know how to handle a loss - that heads are down and it's like a funeral in the locker room. That's the smoking gun right there. How do you fix it? I don't know but I'd start with replacing Hitch, Backes, and Oshie. With Hitch and Backes you would have new leadership in the locker room. Getting a new captain that's won a cup would definitely help if one's available out there.

Agree 100%.
Crazy how different a year makes.
Backes and Oshie were supposed to be the future...and it just hasn't worked out that way and people are ready to ship them out...and it's hard to argue against that idea.

I would imagine confidence issues would be hard to fix as long as the same coaching staff and system are in place. And getting positive results with a new coach & some roster tweaks could go a long way in fixing the issues.

But our scoring issues were supposed to be fixed by bringing in Stastny and Lehtera...and with Schwartz & Tarasenko having breakout seasons. That should have been enough, and it probably is enough as long as the team confidence is there...which is obviously isn't...which sucks.

All of my years playing hockey and I never had a confidence issue. Even when we were playing a team better than we were, I always knew that if we played the way we were capable of playing that we could knock them off. I never thought we were going to lose...ever. It's very frustrating to hear that the issues could be confidence related. That just pisses me off. Remove tail from legs and go out and kick ass on the ice...that is what you dreamed of as a kid, so go out and (Franking) do it until the final bell rings. Anything less makes a player a sorry ass pansy.

[glen a richter]

The problem I suggested a while back was that these piss poor confidence issues stem from a long ass time ago. When Murray was coaching the team, his treatment of all the kids, especially Perron, was probably a major detriment. I get being strict and establishing rules and policies, but jerking them around to the extent that he did had to sap their confidence. And as I'm sure we all know, the things that one does to kids will often be carried with them throughout their life, as those things done to new(er) players in the league will often be carried with them throughout their careers. Perron left St. Louis for two teams he could have easily scored in buckets as a member of, but he's been just as pedestrian as he was in the note. Yeah, he can put up a highlight reel goal, but he should be scoring 30 regularly with his skill set.

Point being, the problem with the locker room culture probably reaches much further back than any of us think. It may well be that Backes, Oshie, Berglund, they're all lost causes because of what happened when they were coming up. The best players on this team had nothing to do with the Murray era. Vova, Schwartz, Shattenkirk, none of them were around for those years. Clean out the Murray mess and you might start seeing a more positive attitude .

[goon attack]

kids?

[glen a richter]

You know what I meant. Rookies, when the current core was a bunch of green kids. Murray's damaging touch could have had long lasting effects. Now granted they're all adults and they need to get over the psychological scarring they suffered early in their career, but that damage is done. Evidently reversing it isn't proving to be as easy as it should be.

It could also be the onset of the "everyone gets a trophy" generation. They don't know how to lose and bounce back because in their brains everyone's a winner. I guess when you're getting paid 4 or 5 mil a year everyone really is a winner. Maybe lower base salaries and playoff bonuses should be part of these guys contracts.

[ecbm]

I can understand the lack of appreciation of Oshie. In the regular season, he's does a lot of things you won't notice if you don't watch the Blues game in/game out. When on he's a great two-way forward, he works in the corners and down low more effectively than most think and he's a guy who can play special teams, not least because he does know how to man a point. All that said, this was his worst season if you ask me and-just like Backes, Steen et al.-he disappears in the playoffs.

The only people on the team that are untouchable are 91, 17, 12 and 22. Anybody else could go. Main thing, coach needs to change. Can't see it being Babcock though. His statements about wanting to raise the pay scale for coaches seems like a thinly-veiled wink at Toronto. Can't see it being Bylsma as I imagine Shero will hire him. Word is Edmonton is all in for McLellan so we may have dodged that bullet. We'll see.

Getting a new captain that's won a cup would definitely help if one's available out there.

Agreed. I'd try to work a trade for Lucic. Seems obvious to me so probably Army won't even consider it.

glen-you may be right but to be honest if they're that mentally fragile they'll probably never be champions anyway, at least as a group. Which is pretty much what I'm thinking, now that I spell it out.